Josh Williams

I think it might well have done a bit to reduce some debt.

But the thing I would point to is that in our industry training system, we have more new trainees and apprentices coming in with degrees than any other level of NCEA.

So I think the pathways in New Zealand are inefficient.

As I say, seven out of 10 young people are not going to degrees.

And the completion rate after that, not every one of those young people is going to complete that degree.

So I actually do think we'd be better off investing earlier, including what we're talking about here, that rather than just 15,000 kids get a gateway place or a trades academy and 10,000 kids get a gateway, which as I say, ultimately adds up to a

15% of year 11 to 13.

You know, schools tell me that they've got 55 kids that want to do an automotive program, but they've only got 25 places to hand out.

So there's a lot of young people in the middle out there that would really benefit

including the ones that are going to degree level study.

Again, it's not academic versus vocational.

If you take any one of our major economic sectors and industry sectors, there's jobs that require degrees, there's lots of jobs that don't require degrees.

The actual journey we need to think about is education to employment.

Yes, that's certainly true.

And it's pretty deep and it will only take chipping away at over a long period of time.

But as I say, I would point to things like more of our trainees and apprentices entering the workplace training system with degrees than NCEA.

I would point to, you know, what we celebrate, right, as a society.

I mean, I think it's a shame that New Zealand doesn't have a National Skills Week.

The USA's just had its National Apprenticeships Week.

The UK has one.