Julia Shaw

And you can be an emissions engineer with a kid with asthma and an old grandma who's struggling with her health and still feel like, yeah, I know that I'm creating these dirty cars, and yet I'm going to do it anyway.

Because as you say, there's the conformity, the social pressure, the rationalization, and those are all very human experiences.

And that's why also in the book, I always focus on

Whistleblower is a big word, but like people who at some point actually helped to uncover what was going on.

And that we're back to the topic of heroes.

We're back to bystander effects.

We're back to all of the social psychology and criminal psychology we've been talking about this whole time, which is why I thought it was so important to apply that research to this context and to say, OK, so now we've got.

These people who are willing to engage in these crimes, they know it.

But there's also this moment of how do you get out of it and who is going to stop them?

And back to the idea of heroes.

And you do usually in these cases at some point have a hero, either an external one or an internal one, who goes, this needs to stop.

I have empathy for everybody.

Ooh, there is one context.

So there is one context that I don't know if it's that I have trouble empathizing.

I think it is I have trouble empathizing, and I just think it is I don't want to.

And I don't know why this is the one thing, but I remember writing Evil, and I got to the section on sexual slavery, and...

There was something about that very specific issue of having women in particular in a confined area where you have often trafficked them and then you're forcing them to engage in repeated sexual acts that the person who is running that

I can't.

I know that I'm not saying that that's the worst kind of crime.

I don't think it necessarily is.