Karen Hao

to build things and bring about a vision of the future that he actually fundamentally didn't agree with.

And so that's why people end up with this bad taste in their mouths.

And so, you know, I've been covering the tech industry for over eight years and covered many companies.

I've covered Meta, Google, Microsoft.

in addition to OpenAI.

And OpenAI and Altman, it's the only figure that I've seen this degree of polarization with where people cannot decide

whether he's the greatest or the worst.

That's a great question.

So he was instrumental in trying to get Sam Altman fired.

And he's another one of the people who over time began to feel like he was being manipulated by Altman towards contributing something that he didn't believe in.

How did you know?

Because I interviewed a lot of people.

Ilya, in particular, had two pillars that he cared about deeply.

One is making sure we get to so-called AGI.

And the other is making sure that we get to it safely.

And he felt that Altman was actively undermining both things.

He felt that Altman was creating a very chaotic environment within the company where he was pitting teams against each other, where he was telling different things to different people.

I have.

So I interviewed him in 2019 for a profile that I did of OpenAI for MIT Technology Review.

One of the things that I feel like we should take a step back to examine is going back to this idea of what even is artificial intelligence and what do we mean by intelligence.