Katie Drummond

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

Yeah, it's interesting, too, because chaos is also a signature move of President Trump. And so we're sort of seeing... chaos in a big-picture way across the entire federal government, the entire federal apparatus. Doge being one pocket of chaos that, like, sits within the larger chaos umbrella. So it's just, like, chaos everywhere you look. And I actually think, my sort of theory is that

Yeah, it's interesting, too, because chaos is also a signature move of President Trump. And so we're sort of seeing... chaos in a big-picture way across the entire federal government, the entire federal apparatus. Doge being one pocket of chaos that, like, sits within the larger chaos umbrella. So it's just, like, chaos everywhere you look. And I actually think, my sort of theory is that

Keep going for big balls. Tesla.sexy LLC and big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.

Keep going for big balls. Tesla.sexy LLC and big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.

at least some of the chaos being created by the Trump administration in a big-picture way is distracting people from, like, the nitty-gritty doge chaos that's happening inside of all of these agencies in this sort of simultaneous and concurrent way. So I actually think, like, a lot of the, you know, it's like the Gulf of America, all of the craziness. Self-distraction, yeah.

at least some of the chaos being created by the Trump administration in a big-picture way is distracting people from, like, the nitty-gritty doge chaos that's happening inside of all of these agencies in this sort of simultaneous and concurrent way. So I actually think, like, a lot of the, you know, it's like the Gulf of America, all of the craziness. Self-distraction, yeah.

Yeah, the DEI stuff, as awful as it is, I think these are, you know, Canada is the 51st state. Like, these are distractions while 25-year-old engineers who interned at SpaceX are trying to obtain administrative access to very sensitive systems that contain data about millions of Americans. Yeah.

Yeah, the DEI stuff, as awful as it is, I think these are, you know, Canada is the 51st state. Like, these are distractions while 25-year-old engineers who interned at SpaceX are trying to obtain administrative access to very sensitive systems that contain data about millions of Americans. Yeah.

That's a really good question. If I had an answer to that question, I would be publishing a story. I mean, if you say that they want to train AI on Americans' data, I will... smile and laugh and freak out. Although I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I mean, I think that Elon Musk wants complete and total control of the entire federal infrastructure and apparatus.

That's a really good question. If I had an answer to that question, I would be publishing a story. I mean, if you say that they want to train AI on Americans' data, I will... smile and laugh and freak out. Although I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I mean, I think that Elon Musk wants complete and total control of the entire federal infrastructure and apparatus.

I think that's what the driving force is here. I don't think he's in it for his contracts. I don't think he's in it to make Tesla a more successful company. I think he's in it to run the thing the way he runs every other company in his portfolio. Whether or not he wants that data to train an AI, I think is an open question. But I'm curious to hear what you think.

I think that's what the driving force is here. I don't think he's in it for his contracts. I don't think he's in it to make Tesla a more successful company. I think he's in it to run the thing the way he runs every other company in his portfolio. Whether or not he wants that data to train an AI, I think is an open question. But I'm curious to hear what you think.

And you have a better sense of his psychology than I do. But there certainly seems to be something very, very deeply buried inside of him that just wants to run everything. I mean, it just feels like pure ego.

And you have a better sense of his psychology than I do. But there certainly seems to be something very, very deeply buried inside of him that just wants to run everything. I mean, it just feels like pure ego.

Yeah, from everything we can tell, You know, Doge is expanding. I mean, the budget for Doge, I think last week, expanded to the tune of several million dollars, which strongly suggests that they are onboarding more personnel, that they're bringing more people in. Not exactly a model of efficiency themselves, if they continue at this rate.

Yeah, from everything we can tell, You know, Doge is expanding. I mean, the budget for Doge, I think last week, expanded to the tune of several million dollars, which strongly suggests that they are onboarding more personnel, that they're bringing more people in. Not exactly a model of efficiency themselves, if they continue at this rate.

But, you know, essentially what we have been able to establish, like, there's a pattern to what they are doing, right? So they... They gain access to an agency. They gain access to, in particular, I think, systems that contain, you know, personnel files, personnel data about, you know, who is a probationary employee, for example, right?

But, you know, essentially what we have been able to establish, like, there's a pattern to what they are doing, right? So they... They gain access to an agency. They gain access to, in particular, I think, systems that contain, you know, personnel files, personnel data about, you know, who is a probationary employee, for example, right?

So that someone, as the Trump administration recently changed the rules around this, someone who is, I think, like, in a... They made the probationary period one year instead of two years, I think, which basically allowed them to fire more people. So they're going into these agencies...

So that someone, as the Trump administration recently changed the rules around this, someone who is, I think, like, in a... They made the probationary period one year instead of two years, I think, which basically allowed them to fire more people. So they're going into these agencies...

obtaining data about personnel and salaries, and then they are just, you know, pushing through like sweeping layoffs of hundreds or thousands of federal workers across you know, every agency that you can possibly imagine and sort of a new one every day, right? I think that has become like the repeat sort of Mad Libs version of these stories is Doge is now inside X agency doing Y layoffs.

obtaining data about personnel and salaries, and then they are just, you know, pushing through like sweeping layoffs of hundreds or thousands of federal workers across you know, every agency that you can possibly imagine and sort of a new one every day, right? I think that has become like the repeat sort of Mad Libs version of these stories is Doge is now inside X agency doing Y layoffs.

Like, that is the story. The reality, though... is, first of all, to indiscriminately fire thousands of civil servants without really having an in-depth understanding of what they do, what it even means to be in a probationary period, because that also applies to someone who was recently promoted.

Like, that is the story. The reality, though... is, first of all, to indiscriminately fire thousands of civil servants without really having an in-depth understanding of what they do, what it even means to be in a probationary period, because that also applies to someone who was recently promoted.

So you have people who have been 10-, 20-, 30-year government workers who were just lumped into this probationary worker category and fired, first of all. So there's that whole hot mess express over there. But when the rubber hits the road, like when you look at the math, like when you do the numbers, firing a bunch of civil servants isn't going to get you a trillion dollars.

So you have people who have been 10-, 20-, 30-year government workers who were just lumped into this probationary worker category and fired, first of all. So there's that whole hot mess express over there. But when the rubber hits the road, like when you look at the math, like when you do the numbers, firing a bunch of civil servants isn't going to get you a trillion dollars.

Like that's not where the money is. And so you have these sort of these big promises, these sweeping claims about savings from like, we cut this contract. We don't subscribe to Politico Pro anymore. Look at us go. Look at all the people that we're firing now. that doesn't actually add up to that much money.

Like that's not where the money is. And so you have these sort of these big promises, these sweeping claims about savings from like, we cut this contract. We don't subscribe to Politico Pro anymore. Look at us go. Look at all the people that we're firing now. that doesn't actually add up to that much money.

And so I think the question is, like, where are you planning on finding the other, like, $92 billion that you need to find to get to a trillion dollars?

And so I think the question is, like, where are you planning on finding the other, like, $92 billion that you need to find to get to a trillion dollars?

Yeah, Wired is doing the vetting to the credit of so many other journalists, too. I mean, other news organizations, you know, Wall Street Journal, very notably Bloomberg, have been been breaking some really important stories about some of these individuals as well. I think one thing that's important to note is how this recruiting appears to have happened in the first place.

Yeah, Wired is doing the vetting to the credit of so many other journalists, too. I mean, other news organizations, you know, Wall Street Journal, very notably Bloomberg, have been been breaking some really important stories about some of these individuals as well. I think one thing that's important to note is how this recruiting appears to have happened in the first place.

Thank you so much for having me. I am also in a mysterious location, but I'm not going to tell you where I am either.

Thank you so much for having me. I am also in a mysterious location, but I'm not going to tell you where I am either.

We published a story, I think 10 days ago, about essentially former interns at companies like SpaceX or Palantir going to online forums for alumni of those internship programs or of those companies and basically doing a spray and pray. hey guys, does anyone want to save the federal government? Like DM me and we'll get you like onboarded with Doge.

We published a story, I think 10 days ago, about essentially former interns at companies like SpaceX or Palantir going to online forums for alumni of those internship programs or of those companies and basically doing a spray and pray. hey guys, does anyone want to save the federal government? Like DM me and we'll get you like onboarded with Doge.

So that appears to have been, you know, the very sort of elite handpicked recruiting process was actually just, you know, posting in message boards. From there, it's relatively unclear what kind of vetting actually happened or whether there was an interview process, whether there were background checks, security clearances. I mean, we published a story about one of these guys who goes by Big Balls.

So that appears to have been, you know, the very sort of elite handpicked recruiting process was actually just, you know, posting in message boards. From there, it's relatively unclear what kind of vetting actually happened or whether there was an interview process, whether there were background checks, security clearances. I mean, we published a story about one of these guys who goes by Big Balls.

We've all heard about Big Balls. Everyone has talked a lot about big balls, but, you know, we talked to several, I think three or four different experts who said it is very unlikely that this guy would ever pass a security clearance to walk into a federal agency. Like, it would not happen.

We've all heard about Big Balls. Everyone has talked a lot about big balls, but, you know, we talked to several, I think three or four different experts who said it is very unlikely that this guy would ever pass a security clearance to walk into a federal agency. Like, it would not happen.

This guy has been involved in not criminal enterprises, but at the very least, like, criminally adjacent enterprises. He has, you know, he's running, you know... Web domains out of Russia, like he is doing all sorts of really bizarre, sketchy stuff that would raise serious red flags with someone doing a background check before allowing a new federal. He really loves that. Yeah.

This guy has been involved in not criminal enterprises, but at the very least, like, criminally adjacent enterprises. He has, you know, he's running, you know... Web domains out of Russia, like he is doing all sorts of really bizarre, sketchy stuff that would raise serious red flags with someone doing a background check before allowing a new federal. He really loves that. Yeah.

I mean, it's just it's it's this sort of like reckless disregard for any standards in terms of who you're bringing in.

I mean, it's just it's it's this sort of like reckless disregard for any standards in terms of who you're bringing in.

Older people wouldn't. I think, look, there is this, as you know very well, the cult of Elon, right? And I think for a lot of young men in the technology space, What he is doing and everything that he does and the way he lives his life, the way he communicates online, he's an icon. He's an idol.

Older people wouldn't. I think, look, there is this, as you know very well, the cult of Elon, right? And I think for a lot of young men in the technology space, What he is doing and everything that he does and the way he lives his life, the way he communicates online, he's an icon. He's an idol.

I mean, they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable and they will go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon. They are doing it for this larger cause, this notion of saving the United States.

I mean, they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable and they will go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon. They are doing it for this larger cause, this notion of saving the United States.

I would imagine for a 19-year-old who, you know, runs a company called Tesla.Sexy LLC, probably thinks this is a pretty exciting adventure to be on with Elon Musk.

I would imagine for a 19-year-old who, you know, runs a company called Tesla.Sexy LLC, probably thinks this is a pretty exciting adventure to be on with Elon Musk.

I mean, my best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the inner circle and wishes he was... inside of the inner circle, right, and has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk. I mean, I think it's interesting to compare that Time magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump administration to now Elon, you know, in that very iconic Time cover from a couple weeks ago.

I mean, my best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the inner circle and wishes he was... inside of the inner circle, right, and has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk. I mean, I think it's interesting to compare that Time magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump administration to now Elon, you know, in that very iconic Time cover from a couple weeks ago.

He's sitting in front of the Resolute desk. Yeah, I think that Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in, probably wishing that he was part of the club. That's my best guess.

He's sitting in front of the Resolute desk. Yeah, I think that Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in, probably wishing that he was part of the club. That's my best guess.

Yes. Time is a funny thing these days, but it was about a year and a half ago. It was September 2023. I got the job. I started. And actually, my second day on the job, I emailed my boss. My boss is Anna Wintour. That must be fun. It's actually delightful. She's amazing. And I said, I need to hire a politics team. And here's why. And here's what I want to do. So it was...

Yes. Time is a funny thing these days, but it was about a year and a half ago. It was September 2023. I got the job. I started. And actually, my second day on the job, I emailed my boss. My boss is Anna Wintour. That must be fun. It's actually delightful. She's amazing. And I said, I need to hire a politics team. And here's why. And here's what I want to do. So it was...

Yeah, yeah. I wish I could say that we were seeing signs of some really coherent strategic effort on the part of the Democrats, on the part of leaders within these agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it from happening. That's not what I'm seeing. I don't think that's what our reporting indicates. I don't think that we're seeing that play out.

Yeah, yeah. I wish I could say that we were seeing signs of some really coherent strategic effort on the part of the Democrats, on the part of leaders within these agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it from happening. That's not what I'm seeing. I don't think that's what our reporting indicates. I don't think that we're seeing that play out.

I think what we're seeing, to your point, are politicians standing up outside of offices in D.C. and making a fuss and making noise, which fine. I mean, even just the visibility of that, I think having those clips on social media, there's value there. Obviously, we're seeing people take to the streets and protest in I think, relatively small numbers at this point, if I'm being totally honest.

I think what we're seeing, to your point, are politicians standing up outside of offices in D.C. and making a fuss and making noise, which fine. I mean, even just the visibility of that, I think having those clips on social media, there's value there. Obviously, we're seeing people take to the streets and protest in I think, relatively small numbers at this point, if I'm being totally honest.

And I also don't think the Trump administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers. And then we are seeing, you know, career civil servants, people in very senior positions within these agencies, walk. We're seeing them walk publicly, right? They're not being shy about why they're leaving publicly.

And I also don't think the Trump administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers. And then we are seeing, you know, career civil servants, people in very senior positions within these agencies, walk. We're seeing them walk publicly, right? They're not being shy about why they're leaving publicly.

And I completely understand that for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer, I think with integrity, hold the office that they hold, that the only choice they feel they have is to leave. On the flip side, though, what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and President Trump and all of these, you know, leaders within these federal agencies to, uh,

And I completely understand that for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer, I think with integrity, hold the office that they hold, that the only choice they feel they have is to leave. On the flip side, though, what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and President Trump and all of these, you know, leaders within these federal agencies to, uh,

put someone else in these big jobs who will be malleable, who will be pliant, and who will execute according to Musk and Trump's demands. So that's essentially what that means. They just opened up the headcount. And that's a good thing.

put someone else in these big jobs who will be malleable, who will be pliant, and who will execute according to Musk and Trump's demands. So that's essentially what that means. They just opened up the headcount. And that's a good thing.

I'm happy to talk more about it, but it was sort of from inception, I think, looking ahead at 2024, which was obviously a critical election year for the United States and for so many other countries around the world. At the time, in my head, it was much more about

I'm happy to talk more about it, but it was sort of from inception, I think, looking ahead at 2024, which was obviously a critical election year for the United States and for so many other countries around the world. At the time, in my head, it was much more about

Yeah. So, oh, I mean, and as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it, I have to say this line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being. You know, so we've identified several SpaceX engineers who were onboarded into the FAA this week. Even as, you know, the Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, I think on Monday said that

Yeah. So, oh, I mean, and as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it, I have to say this line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being. You know, so we've identified several SpaceX engineers who were onboarded into the FAA this week. Even as, you know, the Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, I think on Monday said that

We've got some engineers from SpaceX. They're taking a tour of some facilities, sort of like nothing to see here. Meanwhile, they were actually being onboarded as employees of the FAA. And so these are these are engineers. I think it's important to be very clear that these are people with legitimate qualifications. Right. I'm not talking about 19 year olds who have decided to put up a rocket.

We've got some engineers from SpaceX. They're taking a tour of some facilities, sort of like nothing to see here. Meanwhile, they were actually being onboarded as employees of the FAA. And so these are these are engineers. I think it's important to be very clear that these are people with legitimate qualifications. Right. I'm not talking about 19 year olds who have decided to put up a rocket.

Yeah. Right. These are people who work at SpaceX. They make rockets go into the sky and then come down. But there are obviously several concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now. One is that Doge just fired, I think, several hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's very clear that that the FAA has been understaffed and spread way too thin for far too long, right?

Yeah. Right. These are people who work at SpaceX. They make rockets go into the sky and then come down. But there are obviously several concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now. One is that Doge just fired, I think, several hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's very clear that that the FAA has been understaffed and spread way too thin for far too long, right?

generative AI, mis- and disinformation, hacking, and those sort of tech adjacencies to politics, I wasn't thinking, well, obviously Elon Musk is going to jump in and end up sleeping at the White House. That wasn't on my radar at the time. But certainly our coverage has evolved a great deal since then.

generative AI, mis- and disinformation, hacking, and those sort of tech adjacencies to politics, I wasn't thinking, well, obviously Elon Musk is going to jump in and end up sleeping at the White House. That wasn't on my radar at the time. But certainly our coverage has evolved a great deal since then.

There have been alarm bells sounded about that for a very long time. So the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with. There's also just the reality, as you just pointed out, that the FAA oversees SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations. So

There have been alarm bells sounded about that for a very long time. So the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with. There's also just the reality, as you just pointed out, that the FAA oversees SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations. So

The idea that you would have engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency that they now work for going in to try to, quote, fix that agency is one enormous and very stressful conflict of interest. I just find the idea of someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that also oversees and governs commercial aviation. That's genuinely a very scary prospect.

The idea that you would have engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency that they now work for going in to try to, quote, fix that agency is one enormous and very stressful conflict of interest. I just find the idea of someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that also oversees and governs commercial aviation. That's genuinely a very scary prospect.

Yeah, I think eyes and ears and marching orders, right? I mean, they're there to carry out... Elon's Elon's asks, even though he is ostensibly apparently not in charge of Doge. I think we all know that that's, you know, that's a lie. It's an interesting characterization that doesn't seem reflected in what's actually going on. I mean, look, I think they're the adults in the room.

Yeah, I think eyes and ears and marching orders, right? I mean, they're there to carry out... Elon's Elon's asks, even though he is ostensibly apparently not in charge of Doge. I think we all know that that's, you know, that's a lie. It's an interesting characterization that doesn't seem reflected in what's actually going on. I mean, look, I think they're the adults in the room.

I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be.

I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be.

I mean, as of now, I think it's fair to say Tesla's not doing great. But we also have situations like X being shopped around at a valuation that matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago. So I think it's hard to say what's happening at the companies now. especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double duty, right? I think we had an example a week ago.

I mean, as of now, I think it's fair to say Tesla's not doing great. But we also have situations like X being shopped around at a valuation that matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago. So I think it's hard to say what's happening at the companies now. especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double duty, right? I think we had an example a week ago.

I believe it was a Doge operative within the Technology Transformation Services who had kept his job at an external company while fulfilling this role for Muscat federal agencies. So it would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull the Elon playbook and work several jobs at the same time.

I believe it was a Doge operative within the Technology Transformation Services who had kept his job at an external company while fulfilling this role for Muscat federal agencies. So it would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull the Elon playbook and work several jobs at the same time.

He could, and that's what has been going on. I mean, we've also seen Doge operatives. I call them operatives because that feels like the most accurate way to describe them. Like, they have multiple email addresses. So you have people working within Doge

He could, and that's what has been going on. I mean, we've also seen Doge operatives. I call them operatives because that feels like the most accurate way to describe them. Like, they have multiple email addresses. So you have people working within Doge

two, three, four agencies at any given time, multiple email addresses, apparently sort of acting out the asks of Musk and sort of Doge leadership across the federal government at once, which is a terrifying proposition.

two, three, four agencies at any given time, multiple email addresses, apparently sort of acting out the asks of Musk and sort of Doge leadership across the federal government at once, which is a terrifying proposition.

I think in particular at the Office of Personnel Management, which is I think shorthand for that would be like it's like HR for the federal government. There's a woman named Amanda Scales who has worked for Musk before, most recently at XAI, and she's there as chief of staff. So she's really sort of like... running point, you know what a chief of staff does.

I think in particular at the Office of Personnel Management, which is I think shorthand for that would be like it's like HR for the federal government. There's a woman named Amanda Scales who has worked for Musk before, most recently at XAI, and she's there as chief of staff. So she's really sort of like... running point, you know what a chief of staff does.

I mean, they sort of like keep all the trains moving. It's like the managing editor is the way I think of it, of the federal government. So I think that she is like a very critical linchpin in this.

I mean, they sort of like keep all the trains moving. It's like the managing editor is the way I think of it, of the federal government. So I think that she is like a very critical linchpin in this.

Then you also have the GSA, which is the General Services Administration and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies because they oversee so many different branches of the federal government. I mean, I think that those are sort of the critical areas the critical adults in the room who are working across all of these different agencies from where they are stationed.

Then you also have the GSA, which is the General Services Administration and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies because they oversee so many different branches of the federal government. I mean, I think that those are sort of the critical areas the critical adults in the room who are working across all of these different agencies from where they are stationed.

But I think Amanda Scales is an important person to be paying attention to, just in the sense that she is really the operational leader working within that agency.

But I think Amanda Scales is an important person to be paying attention to, just in the sense that she is really the operational leader working within that agency.

Everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very close to President Trump don't know what Doge is doing. They don't know. how often to be communicating with Doge. They don't know what that process is supposed to look like. It really feels like Doge is always two or three steps ahead.

Everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very close to President Trump don't know what Doge is doing. They don't know. how often to be communicating with Doge. They don't know what that process is supposed to look like. It really feels like Doge is always two or three steps ahead.

And the actual White House, the actual administration is behind. They are catching up with what Doge is doing. Honestly, it seems like as the press is, as journalists are publishing stories, it sort of feels like the administration is finding out

And the actual White House, the actual administration is behind. They are catching up with what Doge is doing. Honestly, it seems like as the press is, as journalists are publishing stories, it sort of feels like the administration is finding out

what Elon has been up to, despite any assurances or anything that the president is saying publicly, because he has been very publicly supportive of Musk and Doge, it really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on. And frankly, it doesn't really seem like he cares. And why do you think he's allowing this to happen? That's a great question.

what Elon has been up to, despite any assurances or anything that the president is saying publicly, because he has been very publicly supportive of Musk and Doge, it really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on. And frankly, it doesn't really seem like he cares. And why do you think he's allowing this to happen? That's a great question.

AI was a major catalyst at the time. And I think my feeling was, you know, Wired covers a lot. I think Wired being described as like a tech outlet is... is incorrect and sort of misses the forest for the trees, but you can't separate technology from politics anymore.

AI was a major catalyst at the time. And I think my feeling was, you know, Wired covers a lot. I think Wired being described as like a tech outlet is... is incorrect and sort of misses the forest for the trees, but you can't separate technology from politics anymore.

I mean, I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell. He's telling, you know, U.S. citizens, people who voted for him, that he's cutting costs. He's telling them that he is very close to tech and to sort of tech leadership and to the visionary Elon Musk. I think he likes the story. I think he loves the chaos. I think he loves the fact that Doge is in the headlines 24-7.

I mean, I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell. He's telling, you know, U.S. citizens, people who voted for him, that he's cutting costs. He's telling them that he is very close to tech and to sort of tech leadership and to the visionary Elon Musk. I think he likes the story. I think he loves the chaos. I think he loves the fact that Doge is in the headlines 24-7.

I think it keeps his administration top of mind for people because it's inescapable. Yeah, it's a great narrative. It's a great story. I think he likes the story. I don't think he actually cares what's happening in the details. I don't think he's getting into the fine print on this.

I think it keeps his administration top of mind for people because it's inescapable. Yeah, it's a great narrative. It's a great story. I think he likes the story. I don't think he actually cares what's happening in the details. I don't think he's getting into the fine print on this.

And so it just felt like we had the tech industry coverage, we had the consumer tech coverage, we had the science coverage, we had all this other coverage, but we were missing this really important piece over here that

And so it just felt like we had the tech industry coverage, we had the consumer tech coverage, we had the science coverage, we had all this other coverage, but we were missing this really important piece over here that

Made made everything kind of click together like you can't cover artificial intelligence without looking at well how is it being used in elections how is it being regulated how are politicians talking about this technology and so it just felt like we needed that political expertise so.

Made made everything kind of click together like you can't cover artificial intelligence without looking at well how is it being used in elections how is it being regulated how are politicians talking about this technology and so it just felt like we needed that political expertise so.

Here's a perfect example. I mean, this is a platform that to say that it has seen better days would be a massive understatement. I mean, it is, for all intents and purposes, a right-wing echo chamber. It's a mess. It's a terrible user experience. None of the ideas that they have advanced around X sound any good at all. You could pay people on X. They're going to introduce audio and video.

Here's a perfect example. I mean, this is a platform that to say that it has seen better days would be a massive understatement. I mean, it is, for all intents and purposes, a right-wing echo chamber. It's a mess. It's a terrible user experience. None of the ideas that they have advanced around X sound any good at all. You could pay people on X. They're going to introduce audio and video.

They're going to integrate it with Grok AI. Sounds like a complete train wreck. I mean, none of these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the business. However, Elon Musk is very close to the president. I mean, he has that adjacency that for investors, I would imagine, is very appealing.

They're going to integrate it with Grok AI. Sounds like a complete train wreck. I mean, none of these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the business. However, Elon Musk is very close to the president. I mean, he has that adjacency that for investors, I would imagine, is very appealing.

And for investors and advertisers, you know, the sort of the implicit or direct threats that are reportedly being made. So it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration and curry favor with Musk and Trump. It's that in some instances, at least with advertisers, it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice.

And for investors and advertisers, you know, the sort of the implicit or direct threats that are reportedly being made. So it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration and curry favor with Musk and Trump. It's that in some instances, at least with advertisers, it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice.

I mean, I think what is disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interest, the corruption, advertisers bending a knee, investors bending a knee, everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's happening here. To be clear, what's happening here is not okay by any measure. If you extrapolate that...

I mean, I think what is disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interest, the corruption, advertisers bending a knee, investors bending a knee, everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's happening here. To be clear, what's happening here is not okay by any measure. If you extrapolate that...

And sort of think about it across many, many companies across the entire country, like across the United States of America, like that, this is what is happening to our country. X is a microcosm of that, right? But you have a lot of really wealthy, really powerful people, institutions, corporations, bending a knee and saying like, Oh, oligarchy? Like, okay. Let's, like, let's, sure.

And sort of think about it across many, many companies across the entire country, like across the United States of America, like that, this is what is happening to our country. X is a microcosm of that, right? But you have a lot of really wealthy, really powerful people, institutions, corporations, bending a knee and saying like, Oh, oligarchy? Like, okay. Let's, like, let's, sure.

I guess we don't have a choice. So hands up. We're going to go along with it.

I guess we don't have a choice. So hands up. We're going to go along with it.

I mean, I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim Cook from inauguration, like he looked physically ill and like somewhat mortified. But he was there. But he was there. And let history show, let the photos remind everyone in four years when, knock on wood, we have another election and the tables turn, knock on wood. He was there. They were all there. Sam Altman was there.

I mean, I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim Cook from inauguration, like he looked physically ill and like somewhat mortified. But he was there. But he was there. And let history show, let the photos remind everyone in four years when, knock on wood, we have another election and the tables turn, knock on wood. He was there. They were all there. Sam Altman was there.

Sam Altman, obviously an incredibly opportunistic tech executive, was there and then subsequently, you know, polished the president's shoes while telling him how amazing his leadership was going to be for AI in this country and the world. You know, Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the most, I think, brazen and craven example of this and

Sam Altman, obviously an incredibly opportunistic tech executive, was there and then subsequently, you know, polished the president's shoes while telling him how amazing his leadership was going to be for AI in this country and the world. You know, Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the most, I think, brazen and craven example of this and

I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so... It's nauseating. It's nauseating. And again, I think really importantly with all of these tech executives, what's very important for the media and for press and for everybody to remember as the years go by and there's more and more chaos and we're doing more and more, when the dust settles, don't forget... that they were all there.

I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so... It's nauseating. It's nauseating. And again, I think really importantly with all of these tech executives, what's very important for the media and for press and for everybody to remember as the years go by and there's more and more chaos and we're doing more and more, when the dust settles, don't forget... that they were all there.

Don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease the president of the United States. The influence that Meta's platforms have on millions, if not billions of people. Don't forget what he did to appease the administration. I think that that's really important because so much is happening every day. It's been a month. It's been a month.

Don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease the president of the United States. The influence that Meta's platforms have on millions, if not billions of people. Don't forget what he did to appease the administration. I think that that's really important because so much is happening every day. It's been a month. It's been a month.

None that I have been able to discern. I've talked to a lot of tech leaders and tech CEOs, even just off the record or talking to their comms people, and the message to me has been very clear. when we go on the record, don't ask us about politics. They don't want to talk about it. They're not talking about it.

None that I have been able to discern. I've talked to a lot of tech leaders and tech CEOs, even just off the record or talking to their comms people, and the message to me has been very clear. when we go on the record, don't ask us about politics. They don't want to talk about it. They're not talking about it.

And I think it feels so markedly different to 2016 when a lot of them were talking about it. I think Airbnb, I remember, was a really notable example then of a company that came out swinging with regards to the Trump administration, with regards to the president's comments on immigrants, people from garbage countries, whatever, shithole countries.

And I think it feels so markedly different to 2016 when a lot of them were talking about it. I think Airbnb, I remember, was a really notable example then of a company that came out swinging with regards to the Trump administration, with regards to the president's comments on immigrants, people from garbage countries, whatever, shithole countries.

you know, it's radio silence, which I think is really telling, really disturbing, and will unleash any number of crises over the next four years. I really believe that.

you know, it's radio silence, which I think is really telling, really disturbing, and will unleash any number of crises over the next four years. I really believe that.

Yeah. I don't think it's an overall shift. I think you're right that this is like company before country. Right. This is opportunistic. What's best for meta in this specific moment in the context of the numbers. Right. It's about the bottom line. It's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time. It's it is absolutely opportunistic.

Yeah. I don't think it's an overall shift. I think you're right that this is like company before country. Right. This is opportunistic. What's best for meta in this specific moment in the context of the numbers. Right. It's about the bottom line. It's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time. It's it is absolutely opportunistic.

But I think to be able for the Democrats to be able to create opportunities. an opportunity here would require them to first get their shit together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years. And so it's a really hard question to answer when beyond some like sternly worded statements and speeches and a couple of people hanging out

But I think to be able for the Democrats to be able to create opportunities. an opportunity here would require them to first get their shit together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years. And so it's a really hard question to answer when beyond some like sternly worded statements and speeches and a couple of people hanging out

In DC, outside of these federal agencies being noisy, I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all.

In DC, outside of these federal agencies being noisy, I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all.

I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders so that hopefully in three and a half years, we're in a very different position ahead of the next US election. But it's very hard to see that happening right now because I don't see much happening at all.

I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders so that hopefully in three and a half years, we're in a very different position ahead of the next US election. But it's very hard to see that happening right now because I don't see much happening at all.

Yeah, no, I would love to say it was years of beat reporting because that is something that I believe in and that is something we have implemented at Wired is the notion of each reporter owns a beat. We believe in iterative reporting.

Yeah, no, I would love to say it was years of beat reporting because that is something that I believe in and that is something we have implemented at Wired is the notion of each reporter owns a beat. We believe in iterative reporting.

Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree.

Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree.

I've always been a big Pete Buttigieg fan. I think he knows how to create a viral moment. He's very well-spoken. He's very forceful. I think that he continues to be a really promising voice in that party. Obviously, I think that AOC is tremendous. I mean, I think she is articulate. She is forceful. She is accessible.

I've always been a big Pete Buttigieg fan. I think he knows how to create a viral moment. He's very well-spoken. He's very forceful. I think that he continues to be a really promising voice in that party. Obviously, I think that AOC is tremendous. I mean, I think she is articulate. She is forceful. She is accessible.

I think what she does on vertical video, on social platforms, in terms of communicating with her audience is phenomenal. I wish that we saw more politicians do that kind of, I want to call it grassroots outreach. It's grassroots digital outreach, right?

I think what she does on vertical video, on social platforms, in terms of communicating with her audience is phenomenal. I wish that we saw more politicians do that kind of, I want to call it grassroots outreach. It's grassroots digital outreach, right?

It's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms where they spend time, talking to them in a way that feels authentic, helping them navigate what is happening right now, and sort of really genuinely saying, acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader.

It's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms where they spend time, talking to them in a way that feels authentic, helping them navigate what is happening right now, and sort of really genuinely saying, acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader.

I think the Democrats need more to the point of one of the commenters, really sort of, you know, high energy, high velocity, forceful political leaders instead of candidly, you know, the geriatrics who are just kind of sitting on their hands right now.

I think the Democrats need more to the point of one of the commenters, really sort of, you know, high energy, high velocity, forceful political leaders instead of candidly, you know, the geriatrics who are just kind of sitting on their hands right now.

So what that means essentially for someone who doesn't work in journalism is you break off pieces of a story, you publish what you're able to confirm at any given time, and that reporting builds on itself and builds and builds and builds. You don't wait. You know, I think it was over the summer when now President Trump was shot in the ear.

So what that means essentially for someone who doesn't work in journalism is you break off pieces of a story, you publish what you're able to confirm at any given time, and that reporting builds on itself and builds and builds and builds. You don't wait. You know, I think it was over the summer when now President Trump was shot in the ear.

No.

No.

So what happens? What happens? I mean, first of all, I think everything happening right now is very dubious in its legality. And I'm not quite sure how TikTok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't be in. I think that Trump brokers some kind of deal to keep TikTok in the United States. I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down.

So what happens? What happens? I mean, first of all, I think everything happening right now is very dubious in its legality. And I'm not quite sure how TikTok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't be in. I think that Trump brokers some kind of deal to keep TikTok in the United States. I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down.

So I think he brokers some sort of deal. What's in it for Beijing, though... is the big question mark I have, because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm. So how he actually solves for that, I do not know. And we at Wired, I will say, we do not know.

So I think he brokers some sort of deal. What's in it for Beijing, though... is the big question mark I have, because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm. So how he actually solves for that, I do not know. And we at Wired, I will say, we do not know.

I think Elon Musk. I think Larry Ellison. I do not think as much as I really like Frank McCourt and I think that he is, you know, a very articulate and intelligent person. I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way.

I think Elon Musk. I think Larry Ellison. I do not think as much as I really like Frank McCourt and I think that he is, you know, a very articulate and intelligent person. I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way.

You remember those, the photos, the raising the fist, these sort of iconic images that I said to the staff, there is a very good chance that this person is president again. There's a very good chance that he wins because that was such a seminal moment in this election. And shortly after was when Elon jumped in, endorsed Trump and really started saying,

You remember those, the photos, the raising the fist, these sort of iconic images that I said to the staff, there is a very good chance that this person is president again. There's a very good chance that he wins because that was such a seminal moment in this election. And shortly after was when Elon jumped in, endorsed Trump and really started saying,

Okay, I'm going to offer a completely insane, improbable prediction, but I feel like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful and real bummers for everybody, and I'm sorry about that. So here's my prediction.

Okay, I'm going to offer a completely insane, improbable prediction, but I feel like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful and real bummers for everybody, and I'm sorry about that. So here's my prediction.

One thing that we know about Elon Musk is that he latches onto an idea or an ideology, and he sticks with it, and he goes really, really hard at it, and then he changes his mind. It has happened before.

One thing that we know about Elon Musk is that he latches onto an idea or an ideology, and he sticks with it, and he goes really, really hard at it, and then he changes his mind. It has happened before.

My prediction, and you'll have me back on in six months or a year and make fun of me for how wrong I was, something will happen, whether it has to do with his companies, whether it has to do with a divide in MAGA world within sort of the Trump orbit, something will happen. And he will pivot back to a more progressive world. a more left-leaning, Dem-centric ideology.

My prediction, and you'll have me back on in six months or a year and make fun of me for how wrong I was, something will happen, whether it has to do with his companies, whether it has to do with a divide in MAGA world within sort of the Trump orbit, something will happen. And he will pivot back to a more progressive world. a more left-leaning, Dem-centric ideology.

And he will do away with this sort of like hardline, extremist, far-right approach. This is, I am giving you a very optimistic, a very optimistic prediction.

And he will do away with this sort of like hardline, extremist, far-right approach. This is, I am giving you a very optimistic, a very optimistic prediction.

I think it's important for people to remember that he was not always this way. It was not always like this. Well, He was a little bit this way. But he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016. So I am saying there is a 1% chance that he moves in the other direction.

I think it's important for people to remember that he was not always this way. It was not always like this. Well, He was a little bit this way. But he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016. So I am saying there is a 1% chance that he moves in the other direction.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Exactly. You never know. You never know. If Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us anything, it's that you never know. I did not know.

Exactly. You never know. You never know. If Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us anything, it's that you never know. I did not know.

I don't feel pressure to stop doing what we're doing. I think what I feel is concern for the legal and digital and physical safety of my staff. I worry. Like, I'm a mom. I have a family. And I bring my mom energy to work. And I care about them. I worry about them. I worry about myself and my family to a degree. And, of course, I worry about it. But the thing is...

I don't feel pressure to stop doing what we're doing. I think what I feel is concern for the legal and digital and physical safety of my staff. I worry. Like, I'm a mom. I have a family. And I bring my mom energy to work. And I care about them. I worry about them. I worry about myself and my family to a degree. And, of course, I worry about it. But the thing is...

There's nothing inaccurate about the journalism. Like, there is no, you know, everything, as I have said before, I mean, and this is such a cliche thing for an editor-in-chief to say, but we stand by the reporting. It is rock solid. There is not a strand that you could pull on that would unravel in some detrimental way. And so I have to just stick with that and keep going.

There's nothing inaccurate about the journalism. Like, there is no, you know, everything, as I have said before, I mean, and this is such a cliche thing for an editor-in-chief to say, but we stand by the reporting. It is rock solid. There is not a strand that you could pull on that would unravel in some detrimental way. And so I have to just stick with that and keep going.

like running into that campaign with, you know, I think something like $280 million ultimately in contributions and obviously a lot of contribution via his megaphone on X that he uses. So it was at that moment that we knew we had to really focus on Elon Musk and we had to really focus on Trump as probable president-elect.

like running into that campaign with, you know, I think something like $280 million ultimately in contributions and obviously a lot of contribution via his megaphone on X that he uses. So it was at that moment that we knew we had to really focus on Elon Musk and we had to really focus on Trump as probable president-elect.

And I think that's for the entire newsroom. Yep.

And I think that's for the entire newsroom. Yep.

Tesla.sexy LLC and big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.

Tesla.sexy LLC and big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.

Oh, I love it. You love doing it.

Oh, I love it. You love doing it.

And so at that point, you know, we ultimately assigned someone to cover Elon Musk in government, like Elon Musk as political operative, that is your beat, that is what you own. So that was in July.

And so at that point, you know, we ultimately assigned someone to cover Elon Musk in government, like Elon Musk as political operative, that is your beat, that is what you own. So that was in July.

So, you know, we had a lot of lead time to start sourcing up because it was over the summer that we said, everybody here, no matter what you cover, in some way, shape or form, what you cover will be impacted by a Trump administration. So you need to start working on that now. And people did. I mean, they did. And so we were We were prepared, I think, in large part because of that.

So, you know, we had a lot of lead time to start sourcing up because it was over the summer that we said, everybody here, no matter what you cover, in some way, shape or form, what you cover will be impacted by a Trump administration. So you need to start working on that now. And people did. I mean, they did. And so we were We were prepared, I think, in large part because of that.

And then I think in large part because we have journalists on the team, including Zoe Schiffer, who joined us in January, who knows a lot about Elon Musk. I mean, she wrote a whole book about him acquiring Twitter. So I think we had the political aspect of it staffed up and running. We had the tech industry coverage and the sort of expertise on Elon. And when you combine all of that together...

And then I think in large part because we have journalists on the team, including Zoe Schiffer, who joined us in January, who knows a lot about Elon Musk. I mean, she wrote a whole book about him acquiring Twitter. So I think we had the political aspect of it staffed up and running. We had the tech industry coverage and the sort of expertise on Elon. And when you combine all of that together...

really forcefully, which I think we're very good at being very forceful, we just ran at that story. Like, we ran at that story.

really forcefully, which I think we're very good at being very forceful, we just ran at that story. Like, we ran at that story.

No, I love forcefulness and aggression. I mean, gosh, that's such an interesting question. I just, I think that I am a forceful and relatively aggressive person. And I think that my enthusiasm for news and for scoops comes through very loudly and very clearly to the team.

No, I love forcefulness and aggression. I mean, gosh, that's such an interesting question. I just, I think that I am a forceful and relatively aggressive person. And I think that my enthusiasm for news and for scoops comes through very loudly and very clearly to the team.

I think it has since I started the job and made it very clear what we were here to do, which was to interrogate power structures within the tech industry. That is what I'm interested in doing. I have been very clear about that from day one.

I think it has since I started the job and made it very clear what we were here to do, which was to interrogate power structures within the tech industry. That is what I'm interested in doing. I have been very clear about that from day one.

No, no, no. And it's not even some grandiose... notion that I have. I mean, I remember when we published that, one of our first stories naming several of these young engineers, and it was an explosive story. We got a lot of criticism. And it's not that I was surprised by any of it, but I just hadn't, like the idea of... softening that story had not even entered my mind.

No, no, no. And it's not even some grandiose... notion that I have. I mean, I remember when we published that, one of our first stories naming several of these young engineers, and it was an explosive story. We got a lot of criticism. And it's not that I was surprised by any of it, but I just hadn't, like the idea of... softening that story had not even entered my mind.

And I don't say that to brag. I say it because we're just like, this is the job. I get paid to do this. This is my job. I take my job very seriously. I love what I do. But I have not thought for a second that we should soften anything that we're doing. I think what we owe our audience is

And I don't say that to brag. I say it because we're just like, this is the job. I get paid to do this. This is my job. I take my job very seriously. I love what I do. But I have not thought for a second that we should soften anything that we're doing. I think what we owe our audience is

very clear, very transparent, like very direct coverage and explanations of exactly what is happening as we are able to learn it and confirm it. Like, that's all we're doing. That's it.

very clear, very transparent, like very direct coverage and explanations of exactly what is happening as we are able to learn it and confirm it. Like, that's all we're doing. That's it.

I mean, the notion that there is something illegal about And naming individuals working within federal agencies at the behest of Elon Musk is nonsense. Like, I just, I don't even, I don't even understand what that means.

I mean, the notion that there is something illegal about And naming individuals working within federal agencies at the behest of Elon Musk is nonsense. Like, I just, I don't even, I don't even understand what that means.

Yes. Questions isn't quite taking it far enough, I don't think, at this point, but I'm not a judge. So my understanding of this, I mean, first of all, it is chaos across the board. It's like, wait, sorry. The president of the United States has been saying for months that Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, that he runs Doge. He's in charge of Doge. Elon's doing this thing.

Yes. Questions isn't quite taking it far enough, I don't think, at this point, but I'm not a judge. So my understanding of this, I mean, first of all, it is chaos across the board. It's like, wait, sorry. The president of the United States has been saying for months that Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, that he runs Doge. He's in charge of Doge. Elon's doing this thing.

Elon's making these decisions. All of a sudden... In a court filing, we now have the White House saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's just like helping out. He's just helping the president out. That is just, first of all, total chaos.

Elon's making these decisions. All of a sudden... In a court filing, we now have the White House saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's just like helping out. He's just helping the president out. That is just, first of all, total chaos.

Second of all, my understanding of that sworn statement, just to be clear, it is a sworn statement, is that essentially that allows Elon to continue doing what Elon is doing within these federal agencies and within Doge without facing legal ramifications for overstepping in a role that, to what you just said, ought to be an elected position.

Second of all, my understanding of that sworn statement, just to be clear, it is a sworn statement, is that essentially that allows Elon to continue doing what Elon is doing within these federal agencies and within Doge without facing legal ramifications for overstepping in a role that, to what you just said, ought to be an elected position.

Like, he ought to have had to be elected or confirmed in some way, shape, or form. Instead, he just walked right in the front door. And I think what they are trying to do is avoid any legal scenario where he needs to stop down what he is working on.

Like, he ought to have had to be elected or confirmed in some way, shape, or form. Instead, he just walked right in the front door. And I think what they are trying to do is avoid any legal scenario where he needs to stop down what he is working on.

Yeah, I think trying to, you know, there have been so many lawsuits at this point filed about what Doge is doing. What several of them have in common is that they rely on this Watergate-era law, the Privacy Act, that essentially prevents government employees from from accessing Americans' data in a variety of different ways.

Yeah, I think trying to, you know, there have been so many lawsuits at this point filed about what Doge is doing. What several of them have in common is that they rely on this Watergate-era law, the Privacy Act, that essentially prevents government employees from from accessing Americans' data in a variety of different ways.

So it essentially is designed to safeguard very sensitive information about the American people from agents within the US government. And so essentially we have lawsuits saying, you know, everything that's happening here, sort of the access that Doge appears to have within these agencies is a violation of this Privacy Act that was instituted, you know, several decades ago.

So it essentially is designed to safeguard very sensitive information about the American people from agents within the US government. And so essentially we have lawsuits saying, you know, everything that's happening here, sort of the access that Doge appears to have within these agencies is a violation of this Privacy Act that was instituted, you know, several decades ago.

You know, whether that actually succeeds in any or all of these lawsuits is an open question. And I think one thing that's interesting to me and I think troubling to me is that You know, that argument could succeed in one instance, let's say a lawsuit with regards to access in the Treasury Department, and it could fail in another instance. So let's say access to IRS data, right?

You know, whether that actually succeeds in any or all of these lawsuits is an open question. And I think one thing that's interesting to me and I think troubling to me is that You know, that argument could succeed in one instance, let's say a lawsuit with regards to access in the Treasury Department, and it could fail in another instance. So let's say access to IRS data, right?

So you have this sort of like Band-Aid slapdash approach to trying to just like... stop Doge from accessing as much data as possible, but how do you stop them from accessing data wholesale on sort of like a holistic level? I don't think we have an answer to that.

So you have this sort of like Band-Aid slapdash approach to trying to just like... stop Doge from accessing as much data as possible, but how do you stop them from accessing data wholesale on sort of like a holistic level? I don't think we have an answer to that.

It's the slowest way, and certainly it opens up questions about whether or not the administration decides to abide by the rulings of the courts, right? I mean, I think that's an existential question for the country. You know, we don't have a legal reporter.

It's the slowest way, and certainly it opens up questions about whether or not the administration decides to abide by the rulings of the courts, right? I mean, I think that's an existential question for the country. You know, we don't have a legal reporter.

We just have really, really smart security and politics reporters and, you know, a team of managers on top of them who are the smartest journalists I've ever worked with. And we make a lot of phone calls. So we talk to a lot of experts who know this stuff inside and out.

We just have really, really smart security and politics reporters and, you know, a team of managers on top of them who are the smartest journalists I've ever worked with. And we make a lot of phone calls. So we talk to a lot of experts who know this stuff inside and out.

and can essentially help us translate all of that information for the audience to make it as easy as possible for people to understand, you know, what is happening and what potential safeguards exist to prevent it from happening.

and can essentially help us translate all of that information for the audience to make it as easy as possible for people to understand, you know, what is happening and what potential safeguards exist to prevent it from happening.

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

Yeah, it's interesting, too, because chaos is also a signature move of President Trump. And so we're sort of seeing... chaos in a big-picture way across the entire federal government, the entire federal apparatus. Doge being one pocket of chaos that, like, sits within the larger chaos umbrella. So it's just, like, chaos everywhere you look. And I actually think, my sort of theory is that

Keep going for big balls. Tesla.sexy LLC and big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.

at least some of the chaos being created by the Trump administration in a big-picture way is distracting people from, like, the nitty-gritty doge chaos that's happening inside of all of these agencies in this sort of simultaneous and concurrent way. So I actually think, like, a lot of the, you know, it's like the Gulf of America, all of the craziness. Self-distraction, yeah.

Yeah, the DEI stuff, as awful as it is, I think these are, you know, Canada is the 51st state. Like, these are distractions while 25-year-old engineers who interned at SpaceX are trying to obtain administrative access to very sensitive systems that contain data about millions of Americans. Yeah.

That's a really good question. If I had an answer to that question, I would be publishing a story. I mean, if you say that they want to train AI on Americans' data, I will... smile and laugh and freak out. Although I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I mean, I think that Elon Musk wants complete and total control of the entire federal infrastructure and apparatus.

I think that's what the driving force is here. I don't think he's in it for his contracts. I don't think he's in it to make Tesla a more successful company. I think he's in it to run the thing the way he runs every other company in his portfolio. Whether or not he wants that data to train an AI, I think is an open question. But I'm curious to hear what you think.

And you have a better sense of his psychology than I do. But there certainly seems to be something very, very deeply buried inside of him that just wants to run everything. I mean, it just feels like pure ego.

Yeah, from everything we can tell, You know, Doge is expanding. I mean, the budget for Doge, I think last week, expanded to the tune of several million dollars, which strongly suggests that they are onboarding more personnel, that they're bringing more people in. Not exactly a model of efficiency themselves, if they continue at this rate.

But, you know, essentially what we have been able to establish, like, there's a pattern to what they are doing, right? So they... They gain access to an agency. They gain access to, in particular, I think, systems that contain, you know, personnel files, personnel data about, you know, who is a probationary employee, for example, right?

So that someone, as the Trump administration recently changed the rules around this, someone who is, I think, like, in a... They made the probationary period one year instead of two years, I think, which basically allowed them to fire more people. So they're going into these agencies...

obtaining data about personnel and salaries, and then they are just, you know, pushing through like sweeping layoffs of hundreds or thousands of federal workers across you know, every agency that you can possibly imagine and sort of a new one every day, right? I think that has become like the repeat sort of Mad Libs version of these stories is Doge is now inside X agency doing Y layoffs.

Like, that is the story. The reality, though... is, first of all, to indiscriminately fire thousands of civil servants without really having an in-depth understanding of what they do, what it even means to be in a probationary period, because that also applies to someone who was recently promoted.

So you have people who have been 10-, 20-, 30-year government workers who were just lumped into this probationary worker category and fired, first of all. So there's that whole hot mess express over there. But when the rubber hits the road, like when you look at the math, like when you do the numbers, firing a bunch of civil servants isn't going to get you a trillion dollars.

Like that's not where the money is. And so you have these sort of these big promises, these sweeping claims about savings from like, we cut this contract. We don't subscribe to Politico Pro anymore. Look at us go. Look at all the people that we're firing now. that doesn't actually add up to that much money.

And so I think the question is, like, where are you planning on finding the other, like, $92 billion that you need to find to get to a trillion dollars?

Yeah, Wired is doing the vetting to the credit of so many other journalists, too. I mean, other news organizations, you know, Wall Street Journal, very notably Bloomberg, have been been breaking some really important stories about some of these individuals as well. I think one thing that's important to note is how this recruiting appears to have happened in the first place.

Thank you so much for having me. I am also in a mysterious location, but I'm not going to tell you where I am either.

We published a story, I think 10 days ago, about essentially former interns at companies like SpaceX or Palantir going to online forums for alumni of those internship programs or of those companies and basically doing a spray and pray. hey guys, does anyone want to save the federal government? Like DM me and we'll get you like onboarded with Doge.

So that appears to have been, you know, the very sort of elite handpicked recruiting process was actually just, you know, posting in message boards. From there, it's relatively unclear what kind of vetting actually happened or whether there was an interview process, whether there were background checks, security clearances. I mean, we published a story about one of these guys who goes by Big Balls.

We've all heard about Big Balls. Everyone has talked a lot about big balls, but, you know, we talked to several, I think three or four different experts who said it is very unlikely that this guy would ever pass a security clearance to walk into a federal agency. Like, it would not happen.

This guy has been involved in not criminal enterprises, but at the very least, like, criminally adjacent enterprises. He has, you know, he's running, you know... Web domains out of Russia, like he is doing all sorts of really bizarre, sketchy stuff that would raise serious red flags with someone doing a background check before allowing a new federal. He really loves that. Yeah.

I mean, it's just it's it's this sort of like reckless disregard for any standards in terms of who you're bringing in.

Older people wouldn't. I think, look, there is this, as you know very well, the cult of Elon, right? And I think for a lot of young men in the technology space, What he is doing and everything that he does and the way he lives his life, the way he communicates online, he's an icon. He's an idol.

I mean, they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable and they will go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon. They are doing it for this larger cause, this notion of saving the United States.

I would imagine for a 19-year-old who, you know, runs a company called Tesla.Sexy LLC, probably thinks this is a pretty exciting adventure to be on with Elon Musk.

I mean, my best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the inner circle and wishes he was... inside of the inner circle, right, and has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk. I mean, I think it's interesting to compare that Time magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump administration to now Elon, you know, in that very iconic Time cover from a couple weeks ago.

He's sitting in front of the Resolute desk. Yeah, I think that Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in, probably wishing that he was part of the club. That's my best guess.

Yes. Time is a funny thing these days, but it was about a year and a half ago. It was September 2023. I got the job. I started. And actually, my second day on the job, I emailed my boss. My boss is Anna Wintour. That must be fun. It's actually delightful. She's amazing. And I said, I need to hire a politics team. And here's why. And here's what I want to do. So it was...

Yeah, yeah. I wish I could say that we were seeing signs of some really coherent strategic effort on the part of the Democrats, on the part of leaders within these agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it from happening. That's not what I'm seeing. I don't think that's what our reporting indicates. I don't think that we're seeing that play out.

I think what we're seeing, to your point, are politicians standing up outside of offices in D.C. and making a fuss and making noise, which fine. I mean, even just the visibility of that, I think having those clips on social media, there's value there. Obviously, we're seeing people take to the streets and protest in I think, relatively small numbers at this point, if I'm being totally honest.

And I also don't think the Trump administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers. And then we are seeing, you know, career civil servants, people in very senior positions within these agencies, walk. We're seeing them walk publicly, right? They're not being shy about why they're leaving publicly.

And I completely understand that for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer, I think with integrity, hold the office that they hold, that the only choice they feel they have is to leave. On the flip side, though, what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and President Trump and all of these, you know, leaders within these federal agencies to, uh,

put someone else in these big jobs who will be malleable, who will be pliant, and who will execute according to Musk and Trump's demands. So that's essentially what that means. They just opened up the headcount. And that's a good thing.

I'm happy to talk more about it, but it was sort of from inception, I think, looking ahead at 2024, which was obviously a critical election year for the United States and for so many other countries around the world. At the time, in my head, it was much more about

Yeah. So, oh, I mean, and as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it, I have to say this line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being. You know, so we've identified several SpaceX engineers who were onboarded into the FAA this week. Even as, you know, the Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, I think on Monday said that

We've got some engineers from SpaceX. They're taking a tour of some facilities, sort of like nothing to see here. Meanwhile, they were actually being onboarded as employees of the FAA. And so these are these are engineers. I think it's important to be very clear that these are people with legitimate qualifications. Right. I'm not talking about 19 year olds who have decided to put up a rocket.

Yeah. Right. These are people who work at SpaceX. They make rockets go into the sky and then come down. But there are obviously several concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now. One is that Doge just fired, I think, several hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's very clear that that the FAA has been understaffed and spread way too thin for far too long, right?

generative AI, mis- and disinformation, hacking, and those sort of tech adjacencies to politics, I wasn't thinking, well, obviously Elon Musk is going to jump in and end up sleeping at the White House. That wasn't on my radar at the time. But certainly our coverage has evolved a great deal since then.

There have been alarm bells sounded about that for a very long time. So the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with. There's also just the reality, as you just pointed out, that the FAA oversees SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations. So

The idea that you would have engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency that they now work for going in to try to, quote, fix that agency is one enormous and very stressful conflict of interest. I just find the idea of someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that also oversees and governs commercial aviation. That's genuinely a very scary prospect.

Yeah, I think eyes and ears and marching orders, right? I mean, they're there to carry out... Elon's Elon's asks, even though he is ostensibly apparently not in charge of Doge. I think we all know that that's, you know, that's a lie. It's an interesting characterization that doesn't seem reflected in what's actually going on. I mean, look, I think they're the adults in the room.

I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be.

I mean, as of now, I think it's fair to say Tesla's not doing great. But we also have situations like X being shopped around at a valuation that matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago. So I think it's hard to say what's happening at the companies now. especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double duty, right? I think we had an example a week ago.

I believe it was a Doge operative within the Technology Transformation Services who had kept his job at an external company while fulfilling this role for Muscat federal agencies. So it would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull the Elon playbook and work several jobs at the same time.

He could, and that's what has been going on. I mean, we've also seen Doge operatives. I call them operatives because that feels like the most accurate way to describe them. Like, they have multiple email addresses. So you have people working within Doge

two, three, four agencies at any given time, multiple email addresses, apparently sort of acting out the asks of Musk and sort of Doge leadership across the federal government at once, which is a terrifying proposition.

I think in particular at the Office of Personnel Management, which is I think shorthand for that would be like it's like HR for the federal government. There's a woman named Amanda Scales who has worked for Musk before, most recently at XAI, and she's there as chief of staff. So she's really sort of like... running point, you know what a chief of staff does.

I mean, they sort of like keep all the trains moving. It's like the managing editor is the way I think of it, of the federal government. So I think that she is like a very critical linchpin in this.

Then you also have the GSA, which is the General Services Administration and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies because they oversee so many different branches of the federal government. I mean, I think that those are sort of the critical areas the critical adults in the room who are working across all of these different agencies from where they are stationed.

But I think Amanda Scales is an important person to be paying attention to, just in the sense that she is really the operational leader working within that agency.

Everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very close to President Trump don't know what Doge is doing. They don't know. how often to be communicating with Doge. They don't know what that process is supposed to look like. It really feels like Doge is always two or three steps ahead.

And the actual White House, the actual administration is behind. They are catching up with what Doge is doing. Honestly, it seems like as the press is, as journalists are publishing stories, it sort of feels like the administration is finding out

what Elon has been up to, despite any assurances or anything that the president is saying publicly, because he has been very publicly supportive of Musk and Doge, it really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on. And frankly, it doesn't really seem like he cares. And why do you think he's allowing this to happen? That's a great question.

AI was a major catalyst at the time. And I think my feeling was, you know, Wired covers a lot. I think Wired being described as like a tech outlet is... is incorrect and sort of misses the forest for the trees, but you can't separate technology from politics anymore.

I mean, I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell. He's telling, you know, U.S. citizens, people who voted for him, that he's cutting costs. He's telling them that he is very close to tech and to sort of tech leadership and to the visionary Elon Musk. I think he likes the story. I think he loves the chaos. I think he loves the fact that Doge is in the headlines 24-7.

I think it keeps his administration top of mind for people because it's inescapable. Yeah, it's a great narrative. It's a great story. I think he likes the story. I don't think he actually cares what's happening in the details. I don't think he's getting into the fine print on this.

And so it just felt like we had the tech industry coverage, we had the consumer tech coverage, we had the science coverage, we had all this other coverage, but we were missing this really important piece over here that

Made made everything kind of click together like you can't cover artificial intelligence without looking at well how is it being used in elections how is it being regulated how are politicians talking about this technology and so it just felt like we needed that political expertise so.

Here's a perfect example. I mean, this is a platform that to say that it has seen better days would be a massive understatement. I mean, it is, for all intents and purposes, a right-wing echo chamber. It's a mess. It's a terrible user experience. None of the ideas that they have advanced around X sound any good at all. You could pay people on X. They're going to introduce audio and video.

They're going to integrate it with Grok AI. Sounds like a complete train wreck. I mean, none of these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the business. However, Elon Musk is very close to the president. I mean, he has that adjacency that for investors, I would imagine, is very appealing.

And for investors and advertisers, you know, the sort of the implicit or direct threats that are reportedly being made. So it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration and curry favor with Musk and Trump. It's that in some instances, at least with advertisers, it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice.

I mean, I think what is disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interest, the corruption, advertisers bending a knee, investors bending a knee, everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's happening here. To be clear, what's happening here is not okay by any measure. If you extrapolate that...

And sort of think about it across many, many companies across the entire country, like across the United States of America, like that, this is what is happening to our country. X is a microcosm of that, right? But you have a lot of really wealthy, really powerful people, institutions, corporations, bending a knee and saying like, Oh, oligarchy? Like, okay. Let's, like, let's, sure.

I guess we don't have a choice. So hands up. We're going to go along with it.

I mean, I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim Cook from inauguration, like he looked physically ill and like somewhat mortified. But he was there. But he was there. And let history show, let the photos remind everyone in four years when, knock on wood, we have another election and the tables turn, knock on wood. He was there. They were all there. Sam Altman was there.

Sam Altman, obviously an incredibly opportunistic tech executive, was there and then subsequently, you know, polished the president's shoes while telling him how amazing his leadership was going to be for AI in this country and the world. You know, Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the most, I think, brazen and craven example of this and

I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so... It's nauseating. It's nauseating. And again, I think really importantly with all of these tech executives, what's very important for the media and for press and for everybody to remember as the years go by and there's more and more chaos and we're doing more and more, when the dust settles, don't forget... that they were all there.

Don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease the president of the United States. The influence that Meta's platforms have on millions, if not billions of people. Don't forget what he did to appease the administration. I think that that's really important because so much is happening every day. It's been a month. It's been a month.

None that I have been able to discern. I've talked to a lot of tech leaders and tech CEOs, even just off the record or talking to their comms people, and the message to me has been very clear. when we go on the record, don't ask us about politics. They don't want to talk about it. They're not talking about it.

And I think it feels so markedly different to 2016 when a lot of them were talking about it. I think Airbnb, I remember, was a really notable example then of a company that came out swinging with regards to the Trump administration, with regards to the president's comments on immigrants, people from garbage countries, whatever, shithole countries.

you know, it's radio silence, which I think is really telling, really disturbing, and will unleash any number of crises over the next four years. I really believe that.

Yeah. I don't think it's an overall shift. I think you're right that this is like company before country. Right. This is opportunistic. What's best for meta in this specific moment in the context of the numbers. Right. It's about the bottom line. It's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time. It's it is absolutely opportunistic.

But I think to be able for the Democrats to be able to create opportunities. an opportunity here would require them to first get their shit together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years. And so it's a really hard question to answer when beyond some like sternly worded statements and speeches and a couple of people hanging out

In DC, outside of these federal agencies being noisy, I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all.

I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders so that hopefully in three and a half years, we're in a very different position ahead of the next US election. But it's very hard to see that happening right now because I don't see much happening at all.

Yeah, no, I would love to say it was years of beat reporting because that is something that I believe in and that is something we have implemented at Wired is the notion of each reporter owns a beat. We believe in iterative reporting.

Yeah, I would agree with you. I would agree.

I've always been a big Pete Buttigieg fan. I think he knows how to create a viral moment. He's very well-spoken. He's very forceful. I think that he continues to be a really promising voice in that party. Obviously, I think that AOC is tremendous. I mean, I think she is articulate. She is forceful. She is accessible.

I think what she does on vertical video, on social platforms, in terms of communicating with her audience is phenomenal. I wish that we saw more politicians do that kind of, I want to call it grassroots outreach. It's grassroots digital outreach, right?

It's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms where they spend time, talking to them in a way that feels authentic, helping them navigate what is happening right now, and sort of really genuinely saying, acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader.

I think the Democrats need more to the point of one of the commenters, really sort of, you know, high energy, high velocity, forceful political leaders instead of candidly, you know, the geriatrics who are just kind of sitting on their hands right now.

So what that means essentially for someone who doesn't work in journalism is you break off pieces of a story, you publish what you're able to confirm at any given time, and that reporting builds on itself and builds and builds and builds. You don't wait. You know, I think it was over the summer when now President Trump was shot in the ear.

No.

So what happens? What happens? I mean, first of all, I think everything happening right now is very dubious in its legality. And I'm not quite sure how TikTok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't be in. I think that Trump brokers some kind of deal to keep TikTok in the United States. I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down.

So I think he brokers some sort of deal. What's in it for Beijing, though... is the big question mark I have, because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm. So how he actually solves for that, I do not know. And we at Wired, I will say, we do not know.

I think Elon Musk. I think Larry Ellison. I do not think as much as I really like Frank McCourt and I think that he is, you know, a very articulate and intelligent person. I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way.

You remember those, the photos, the raising the fist, these sort of iconic images that I said to the staff, there is a very good chance that this person is president again. There's a very good chance that he wins because that was such a seminal moment in this election. And shortly after was when Elon jumped in, endorsed Trump and really started saying,

Okay, I'm going to offer a completely insane, improbable prediction, but I feel like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful and real bummers for everybody, and I'm sorry about that. So here's my prediction.

One thing that we know about Elon Musk is that he latches onto an idea or an ideology, and he sticks with it, and he goes really, really hard at it, and then he changes his mind. It has happened before.

My prediction, and you'll have me back on in six months or a year and make fun of me for how wrong I was, something will happen, whether it has to do with his companies, whether it has to do with a divide in MAGA world within sort of the Trump orbit, something will happen. And he will pivot back to a more progressive world. a more left-leaning, Dem-centric ideology.

And he will do away with this sort of like hardline, extremist, far-right approach. This is, I am giving you a very optimistic, a very optimistic prediction.

I think it's important for people to remember that he was not always this way. It was not always like this. Well, He was a little bit this way. But he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016. So I am saying there is a 1% chance that he moves in the other direction.

I don't know.

Exactly. You never know. You never know. If Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us anything, it's that you never know. I did not know.

I don't feel pressure to stop doing what we're doing. I think what I feel is concern for the legal and digital and physical safety of my staff. I worry. Like, I'm a mom. I have a family. And I bring my mom energy to work. And I care about them. I worry about them. I worry about myself and my family to a degree. And, of course, I worry about it. But the thing is...

There's nothing inaccurate about the journalism. Like, there is no, you know, everything, as I have said before, I mean, and this is such a cliche thing for an editor-in-chief to say, but we stand by the reporting. It is rock solid. There is not a strand that you could pull on that would unravel in some detrimental way. And so I have to just stick with that and keep going.

like running into that campaign with, you know, I think something like $280 million ultimately in contributions and obviously a lot of contribution via his megaphone on X that he uses. So it was at that moment that we knew we had to really focus on Elon Musk and we had to really focus on Trump as probable president-elect.

And I think that's for the entire newsroom. Yep.

Tesla.sexy LLC and big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts.

Oh, I love it. You love doing it.

And so at that point, you know, we ultimately assigned someone to cover Elon Musk in government, like Elon Musk as political operative, that is your beat, that is what you own. So that was in July.

So, you know, we had a lot of lead time to start sourcing up because it was over the summer that we said, everybody here, no matter what you cover, in some way, shape or form, what you cover will be impacted by a Trump administration. So you need to start working on that now. And people did. I mean, they did. And so we were We were prepared, I think, in large part because of that.

And then I think in large part because we have journalists on the team, including Zoe Schiffer, who joined us in January, who knows a lot about Elon Musk. I mean, she wrote a whole book about him acquiring Twitter. So I think we had the political aspect of it staffed up and running. We had the tech industry coverage and the sort of expertise on Elon. And when you combine all of that together...

really forcefully, which I think we're very good at being very forceful, we just ran at that story. Like, we ran at that story.

No, I love forcefulness and aggression. I mean, gosh, that's such an interesting question. I just, I think that I am a forceful and relatively aggressive person. And I think that my enthusiasm for news and for scoops comes through very loudly and very clearly to the team.

I think it has since I started the job and made it very clear what we were here to do, which was to interrogate power structures within the tech industry. That is what I'm interested in doing. I have been very clear about that from day one.

No, no, no. And it's not even some grandiose... notion that I have. I mean, I remember when we published that, one of our first stories naming several of these young engineers, and it was an explosive story. We got a lot of criticism. And it's not that I was surprised by any of it, but I just hadn't, like the idea of... softening that story had not even entered my mind.

And I don't say that to brag. I say it because we're just like, this is the job. I get paid to do this. This is my job. I take my job very seriously. I love what I do. But I have not thought for a second that we should soften anything that we're doing. I think what we owe our audience is

very clear, very transparent, like very direct coverage and explanations of exactly what is happening as we are able to learn it and confirm it. Like, that's all we're doing. That's it.

I mean, the notion that there is something illegal about And naming individuals working within federal agencies at the behest of Elon Musk is nonsense. Like, I just, I don't even, I don't even understand what that means.

Yes. Questions isn't quite taking it far enough, I don't think, at this point, but I'm not a judge. So my understanding of this, I mean, first of all, it is chaos across the board. It's like, wait, sorry. The president of the United States has been saying for months that Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, that he runs Doge. He's in charge of Doge. Elon's doing this thing.

Elon's making these decisions. All of a sudden... In a court filing, we now have the White House saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's just like helping out. He's just helping the president out. That is just, first of all, total chaos.

Second of all, my understanding of that sworn statement, just to be clear, it is a sworn statement, is that essentially that allows Elon to continue doing what Elon is doing within these federal agencies and within Doge without facing legal ramifications for overstepping in a role that, to what you just said, ought to be an elected position.

Like, he ought to have had to be elected or confirmed in some way, shape, or form. Instead, he just walked right in the front door. And I think what they are trying to do is avoid any legal scenario where he needs to stop down what he is working on.

Yeah, I think trying to, you know, there have been so many lawsuits at this point filed about what Doge is doing. What several of them have in common is that they rely on this Watergate-era law, the Privacy Act, that essentially prevents government employees from from accessing Americans' data in a variety of different ways.

So it essentially is designed to safeguard very sensitive information about the American people from agents within the US government. And so essentially we have lawsuits saying, you know, everything that's happening here, sort of the access that Doge appears to have within these agencies is a violation of this Privacy Act that was instituted, you know, several decades ago.

You know, whether that actually succeeds in any or all of these lawsuits is an open question. And I think one thing that's interesting to me and I think troubling to me is that You know, that argument could succeed in one instance, let's say a lawsuit with regards to access in the Treasury Department, and it could fail in another instance. So let's say access to IRS data, right?

So you have this sort of like Band-Aid slapdash approach to trying to just like... stop Doge from accessing as much data as possible, but how do you stop them from accessing data wholesale on sort of like a holistic level? I don't think we have an answer to that.

It's the slowest way, and certainly it opens up questions about whether or not the administration decides to abide by the rulings of the courts, right? I mean, I think that's an existential question for the country. You know, we don't have a legal reporter.

We just have really, really smart security and politics reporters and, you know, a team of managers on top of them who are the smartest journalists I've ever worked with. And we make a lot of phone calls. So we talk to a lot of experts who know this stuff inside and out.

and can essentially help us translate all of that information for the audience to make it as easy as possible for people to understand, you know, what is happening and what potential safeguards exist to prevent it from happening.

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

Thank you.

Thank you.

What's not working?

What's not working?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else?

Thank you.

What's not working?