Katja Adler

And I mean, when we talk about the allies, I mean, it's a transatlantic military alliance, mainly European, but we have Canada and, of course, the United States, which, and we'll get to this in a moment, of course, foots most of the bill.

And I mean, when we talk about the allies, I mean, it's a transatlantic military alliance, mainly European, but we have Canada and, of course, the United States, which, and we'll get to this in a moment, of course, foots most of the bill.

And you say it's a defence alliance. That's why there's this quite a complicated dance that us journalists have to make, isn't there, Jonathan, that when we say NATO is providing military support to Ukraine, that would be incorrect. It's NATO member states providing support. NATO itself can't do that directly.

And you say it's a defence alliance. That's why there's this quite a complicated dance that us journalists have to make, isn't there, Jonathan, that when we say NATO is providing military support to Ukraine, that would be incorrect. It's NATO member states providing support. NATO itself can't do that directly.

And if we listen, though, to Vladimir Putin, he does not see NATO as a defensive alliance. He sees it as an offensive alliance and says there's been steady creep towards the east, towards Russia. And that's why he was forced to take action in Ukraine.

And if we listen, though, to Vladimir Putin, he does not see NATO as a defensive alliance. He sees it as an offensive alliance and says there's been steady creep towards the east, towards Russia. And that's why he was forced to take action in Ukraine.

Sometimes with information warfare going on also all around Europe, you do feel a certain sympathy for that argument in parts of Europe. I mean, in parts of Italy, I've come across it. In Germany, I've come across it.

Sometimes with information warfare going on also all around Europe, you do feel a certain sympathy for that argument in parts of Europe. I mean, in parts of Italy, I've come across it. In Germany, I've come across it.

Which brings us back to where you are now in Ukraine, which wants so much to be a NATO member state. It says that it doesn't accept that it can't join NATO, even if Russia is occupying part of the country, because when Germany was split East and West… After the Second World War, under communist rule in the East and the Western democracy, the Western part was allowed to join NATO.

Which brings us back to where you are now in Ukraine, which wants so much to be a NATO member state. It says that it doesn't accept that it can't join NATO, even if Russia is occupying part of the country, because when Germany was split East and West… After the Second World War, under communist rule in the East and the Western democracy, the Western part was allowed to join NATO.

So Ukraine says it should be allowed to do that as well. There are voices in Europe who say, well, that'll just encourage Vladimir Putin to attack more in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe. How does it feel where you are?

So Ukraine says it should be allowed to do that as well. There are voices in Europe who say, well, that'll just encourage Vladimir Putin to attack more in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe. How does it feel where you are?

And that is looking to the future, whether there could be NATO membership for Ukraine. What about the present? Donald Trump is returning to the White House. He was no NATO fan. Earlier this year, he said he would encourage Russia to attack NATO members that don't pay their way.

And that is looking to the future, whether there could be NATO membership for Ukraine. What about the present? Donald Trump is returning to the White House. He was no NATO fan. Earlier this year, he said he would encourage Russia to attack NATO members that don't pay their way.

You got to pay your bills. How worried should NATO be? Because Mark Rutter brushed off suggestions that Donald Trump might walk out the NATO door.

You got to pay your bills. How worried should NATO be? Because Mark Rutter brushed off suggestions that Donald Trump might walk out the NATO door.

So we've looked at what's going on in Ukraine and NATO's role. Will Donald Trump stay the course? And could Europe go alone in terms of defence if it has to?

So we've looked at what's going on in Ukraine and NATO's role. Will Donald Trump stay the course? And could Europe go alone in terms of defence if it has to?

This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is Jonathan Beale. Jonathan, how likely is Mark Rutte the new secretary general? How likely is it he will keep Donald Trump on board? He does have a nickname as the Trump whisperer.

This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is Jonathan Beale. Jonathan, how likely is Mark Rutte the new secretary general? How likely is it he will keep Donald Trump on board? He does have a nickname as the Trump whisperer.