Katja Adler

Which brings us back to where you are now in Ukraine, which wants so much to be a NATO member state. It says that it doesn't accept that it can't join NATO, even if Russia is occupying part of the country, because when Germany was split East and West… After the Second World War, under communist rule in the East and the Western democracy, the Western part was allowed to join NATO.

Which brings us back to where you are now in Ukraine, which wants so much to be a NATO member state. It says that it doesn't accept that it can't join NATO, even if Russia is occupying part of the country, because when Germany was split East and West… After the Second World War, under communist rule in the East and the Western democracy, the Western part was allowed to join NATO.

So Ukraine says it should be allowed to do that as well. There are voices in Europe who say, well, that'll just encourage Vladimir Putin to attack more in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe. How does it feel where you are?

So Ukraine says it should be allowed to do that as well. There are voices in Europe who say, well, that'll just encourage Vladimir Putin to attack more in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe. How does it feel where you are?

And that is looking to the future, whether there could be NATO membership for Ukraine. What about the present? Donald Trump is returning to the White House. He was no NATO fan. Earlier this year, he said he would encourage Russia to attack NATO members that don't pay their way.

And that is looking to the future, whether there could be NATO membership for Ukraine. What about the present? Donald Trump is returning to the White House. He was no NATO fan. Earlier this year, he said he would encourage Russia to attack NATO members that don't pay their way.

You got to pay your bills. How worried should NATO be? Because Mark Rutter brushed off suggestions that Donald Trump might walk out the NATO door.

You got to pay your bills. How worried should NATO be? Because Mark Rutter brushed off suggestions that Donald Trump might walk out the NATO door.

So we've looked at what's going on in Ukraine and NATO's role. Will Donald Trump stay the course? And could Europe go alone in terms of defence if it has to?

So we've looked at what's going on in Ukraine and NATO's role. Will Donald Trump stay the course? And could Europe go alone in terms of defence if it has to?

This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is Jonathan Beale. Jonathan, how likely is Mark Rutte the new secretary general? How likely is it he will keep Donald Trump on board? He does have a nickname as the Trump whisperer.

This is The Global Story. We bring you one big international story in detail five days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever you listen. With me is Jonathan Beale. Jonathan, how likely is Mark Rutte the new secretary general? How likely is it he will keep Donald Trump on board? He does have a nickname as the Trump whisperer.

He certainly wasn't chosen as the new secretary general because the Netherlands, he's former prime minister of the Netherlands. has a good track record in defence spending because it was very known to be low when he was prime minister for 14 years.

He certainly wasn't chosen as the new secretary general because the Netherlands, he's former prime minister of the Netherlands. has a good track record in defence spending because it was very known to be low when he was prime minister for 14 years.

So we're talking about Mark Rutte here, the new NATO Secretary General. He gave his big first speech just the other day here in Brussels and I sat down with him straight after. The United States, Donald Trump, he says Europe has to pay its way. Are you worried if Europe doesn't up its spending that he could turn his back on this transatlantic alliance?

So we're talking about Mark Rutte here, the new NATO Secretary General. He gave his big first speech just the other day here in Brussels and I sat down with him straight after. The United States, Donald Trump, he says Europe has to pay its way. Are you worried if Europe doesn't up its spending that he could turn his back on this transatlantic alliance?

I noticed when I spoke to Mark Rutter that he was using a very similar technique. It's flattery to Donald Trump. It was the same flattery that he used in 2018. You're right, Donald Trump. You're right. We do all need to spend a lot more on defence. So even though he was speaking to Europeans here in Brussels...

I noticed when I spoke to Mark Rutter that he was using a very similar technique. It's flattery to Donald Trump. It was the same flattery that he used in 2018. You're right, Donald Trump. You're right. We do all need to spend a lot more on defence. So even though he was speaking to Europeans here in Brussels...

Actually, I felt a lot of this message was directed towards the United States, towards the incoming president. So there's flattery. And also the fact that when he was at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate just at the end of November, he was also using that tactic of Donald Trump wanting to be on top of things, a winner, to put America first. And he was saying, you know...

Actually, I felt a lot of this message was directed towards the United States, towards the incoming president. So there's flattery. And also the fact that when he was at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate just at the end of November, he was also using that tactic of Donald Trump wanting to be on top of things, a winner, to put America first. And he was saying, you know...