Ken Lawson
Appearances
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
So somebody's lying, right? Go back and look. I had the students that don't read the transcripts, read the police reports. The transcripts aren't going to tell you what's not in the evidence. The transcripts are going to tell you what came in the evidence. Not all the shit that didn't come in. You have to read the police reports. Go back to the police reports, read them carefully.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
His family, yeah, filled up the courtroom. And what was odd is, it's a lot of times, you know, when you have someone charged with a serious crime, you know, some departments of public safety overflow the courtroom with deputies, right? Like, this is a scary person, right?
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
So when we first get there, I mean, they are extremely mean to the attorneys, very mean to one of our volunteer attorneys, very mean to the family members. These are the deputies, right? who believed, at least from my perception, believed that Ian was guilty. And the hearing, as you said, lasted all day, and they had to stay there. They, being the deputies, had to stay there all day.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And you could see the more that they heard that evidence, the nicer they started becoming with the family members. The more they heard that evidence, right, the more human they seemed to become.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
I think he knew that he was supposed to be coming back for a hearing. He didn't know that he was coming back so soon because he was in quarantine. The Department of Public Services has to fly out to get him and bring him back. And they were saying because of the COVID rules that he would have to stay in quarantine there.
Crime Junkie
MURDERED: Dana Ireland
And then when he came back here, he would have to be quarantined in the jail before he could even come to court. The next question was, are we going to get a judge that's going to listen?
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And keep in mind, too, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, victims of crimes were getting more and more power to express their opinions on plea bargains. So it used to be, you know, when I first started practicing, most states didn't ignore victims, but a lot of prosecutors would ignore just...
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Here, you would have to get the approval of the Ireland family to say, I'm going to give this man probation. Is that OK with you? Now, if I'm Mr. Ireland, if he's going to confess, I want the guy whose DNA this is. So if he wants freedom, if he didn't want to spend one hour in prison for a murder and a rape of my daughter, I would go along with that plea.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
But I want to know whose DNA was left on that gurney that my daughter's body was on. I want to know whose DNA was in her panties. that was laying out there bloody, or ain't no deal.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Well, yeah, I think when you work on these cases, people can be convicted quickly in our system. And then it's just so hard to unchange the wrongful conviction. I mean, you see it all the time with cases going to the Supreme Court on people on death row and stuff like that and still losing.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And so I think when we finally got the DNA evidence in, when DNA finally reached a point to where they could separate the blood on the Jimmy Zee T-shirt, and also determine sweat DNA, wearer DNA, that didn't exist back when this trial started. And all of that showed that Frank Pauline did not wear that shirt at all. And neither did the other two defendants. No DNA whatsoever. Gave us hope.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Both, both crime scenes, right? It's gone. That whole vacation land, everything.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The next question was, are we going to get a judge that's going to listen? Because there's still a lot of people here who believe, you know, that Ian and the two other defendants are guilty. And that comes from being so, for lack of a better word, brainwashed. You know, during all the years up to the trial and stuff like that, that these guys are thugs.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
You don't know who the unknown male is, and then think about the people that are actually innocent who have no DNA evidence left in their case. It's either been destroyed or it's never taken, and they never get out. You know, Ian and others like him have been blessed enough to say, you know what, the Jimmy Zee t-shirt was still available to be tested.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
I got on the case in 2010 and been with it ever since. So just, you've been waiting on this day, you know, and you're just hoping that, you know, there's no surprises, nothing goes wrong. And we happen to have a very, very good judge who also understood a lot of different things. Like he really understood the tire tread evidence. I guess he tinkers with cars and stuff like that.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
So, I mean, it was just clear to him that there's no way this could have been a Volkswagen.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Because people think what they see on CSI is like, you know, yeah, you can do it, right? You put it through the fingerprint computer and it comes back. You know what I mean? Or, you know, do all kinds of crazy tests and it's like, okay, it's this guy. They really don't understand the level of junk science. The only true science is DNA. The only true science is DNA.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
The rest of this stuff, bite mark evidence, it's just crazy. Crazy. But people believe it.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
Randy put together for our Innocence Project a group of former prosecutors who would come in and the students would present actual, and this is one of the cases the students presented, they would present actual cases, cases where we believe our client's actually innocent. They would present them to former prosecutors and get their feedback and stuff like that.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And so, you know, Randy getting us involved with prosecutors was a huge, huge step because as a criminal defense lawyer, I didn't want to, I mean, I'm like, man, you know, it's like fucking Dracula or somebody, you know what I mean? Give me a cross and some holy water.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
And the pitch was, look, you guys know that there's an unknown, we haven't matched his male DNA yet, unknown male. So your interest is finding him. You still have a perpetrator out there. We all know that. Now you believe the perpetrator may be connected to our client. We believe the opposite.
THREE
Inconclusive | Chapter 5
So we both have a mutual interest in finding out whose DNA this is, and then that could lead us to saying it's not, whatever. And so that's how the joint investigation agreement started, right?
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
The only true science is DNA. The rest of this stuff, bite mark evidence, it's just crazy. Crazy. But people believe it.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Now keep in mind, too, Gonsalves wants that $25,000, right? Reward money. And so you can only get it if it leads to a conviction. So remember, he gets Frank to call in to say, hey, man, talk about the slices and get mom and dad, get mom and the family off the cocaine. So Frank do it. They get indicted. Then the indictment gets dismissed and there goes John's 25 G's. So now John's calling Ortiz.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
They say, hey, man. Right. So now they get indicted again. And you'll see the letters in there from Gonsalves talking about, you know, if you can pay the money to Miami or something.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
He's like the prison priest, but he just happens to wear stripes instead of the white collar.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Remember, the prosecutor in both trials hung his hat on that Jimmy Zee T-shirt. This is Frank Pauline's T-shirt. You have witnesses say that this is his Jimmy Zee T-shirt. And it's at the scene. It has Dana's blood on it. You get to see pictures on the autopsy, the broken pelvic, and then the man rapes her, right? And everybody's in the courtroom, and the guy's sitting over there.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Somebody got to pay for this. And so that passion, that anger... can cloud a factual analysis. That was like, I think, either a medium. I mean, Frank was a huge dude, man. It should have been like when I was older, there was so much blood on you. But he should have just tried to put it on. He probably couldn't get it around his head, you know what I mean? If it don't fit, right?
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
So his physical evidence is like, this guy doesn't wear a that-size T-shirt. I mean, huge guy. But that wasn't enough.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
So his parents mortgaged their house and stuff like that and got him a very good paid attorney. And so what the prosecutor did was they gave him the witness list and used a lot of the attorney's former clients and said they're going to be witnesses. They never called him, right? So now that attorney has to recuse.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Well, by the time he recuses, he's done enough work to where he can't return, he's not returning the fee. So then they scrounge up more money, hire a second attorney. Prosecutor does it again.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Remember, you got Mr. Allen writing U.S. senators. U.S. senators are writing over here to the governor. You got letters from the governor. So you got all these letters from high-ranking people asking the big island police in the front, like, what are you guys doing? When are you going to solve this crime?
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
So it's that type of pressure, along with the victim's family, obviously, but it's that type of pressure. It's like, look, you got to do something. And so eventually, each time Frank wants... a benefit or some type of money on his books or some type of, you know, package being delivered or visiting with his girlfriend and stuff like that. He has to give them more information.
THREE
The Prison Priest | Chapter 4
Hey, Frank, you want something? You got to tell us a little bit more about this case. He eventually walks himself into the murder charge right now. Right. So it goes out. I'm just a witness. I don't know what you're talking about. I saw this. I'm being a good inmate.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
One, I think he's full of shit. I mean, it's easy to say that now when it's already out. But I don't see how the prosecutor's saying we can't come in on an investigation and the chief is telling you what, it's not an ongoing investigation. So somebody's lying, right? If the chief is saying he could have called me and I would have told him this and all this stuff, right?
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
Did you know he was dead then, Your Honor? We cannot comment on an ongoing investigation. So it's almost like you got the prosecutors and corporate counsel telling them to take the Fifth, right? But this is like their way of taking the Fifth. She might as well say, you know, I can't incriminate myself. That's what I'm hearing. Now, she's saying I can't comment on an ongoing investigation.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
then why are the prosecutors telling us that somehow, because it's not the prosecutor's investigation, it's the police investigation. So if he's willing to share that information, why is the prosecutor saying that they can't do it? And so that's the question that needs to be asked of them.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
As far as I'm concerned, to me it's more that hoodwink and bamboozle stuff that the chief been doing when you listen to him talk. Because he could have been a used car salesman, because he's a slickster, man. I mean, listen to Wade. If you listen to Wade's talking, you better start reading in between the lines because he's very careful not to tell a blatant lie.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
But it's easy for the chief to sit up here and give an interview to a podcast interviewers. write anyone after he knows he's released a name and be like, oh, I'm transparent. Now, there had to be communication. This is the reason why if you look at our subpoena, we're like sending us all the emails, text messages between Hilo, the FBI, and everybody else so we know really what was going on.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
Because it's easy to get out front and say, hey, I was Mr. Transparent. You also never called me. He's calling around to the morgue and all that, making all this work for himself. And the reason why Lawson's doing that is because he knows you're going to lie.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
What I'm hearing is I have a constitutional right under the Fifth Amendment not to incriminate myself, and my attorney's advising me not to answer this question. And so the judge told him, and Mike, he said, now you got an ethical obligation, a duty of candor to the court. And that means not even misleading a judge. Because when we left Thursday, like I said, we took a vote.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
The majority of the people in our meeting was like, he's in custody. Because that's the impression they were trying to give. That's misleading. Because you're thinking ongoing investigation, I can't comment on it, that they may have him in protective custody under an assumed name, right, for his protection or whatever.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
Or they may have him in the police office, you know, the helo basement, you know what I mean? Whatever. Because, you know, you have to log people in at the jails. But maybe, you know, the police stations have holding cells, you know, bring a DUI in. Right, you may not have to log them into the system. And so they may have him at the local station in the holding cell.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
So all this stuff is just, right? And so everybody's thinking, right? Because if he's dead, ain't no ongoing investigation. That's the way we're, you know, so they never said he was dead. But I guess between the time that the judge knew he was dead, right? And they never disputed that. They never said he was dead.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
The first time they said he was dead was when the police chief did his conference Tuesday or Monday, whenever that was, Monday or Tuesday.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
The Fourth Amendment applies in Hawaii like it does anywhere else in the United States. I mean, this is not like, OK, the Fourth Amendment stops in California and can't cross the Pacific. So in other words, the meaning of probable cause, the definition of probable cause under the Fourth Amendment is the same. But the DNA, everybody knows DNA, once it's a match, is probable cause.
THREE
Probable Cause | Chapter 8
You know, I have him on the phone near the speaker because he's at a CLE. And the judge said, so you're telling me that a CLE is more important? Then what we're talking about today? Then he's just like, okay, fine, let's just do this. He said, now I want to know, did you guys know that this guy was dead when we were in court yesterday? And I was asking where he was at, and you were telling me.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
So remember, Frank and them was telling the story years later, so they don't know exactly when Ian purchased a Volkswagen. They're assuming he had it at the time that Dana was killed, but he didn't. You follow what I'm saying? So Ian kept trying to say, look, I didn't purchase the Volkswagen until after Daniel was, it couldn't have been. One, it wasn't a Volkswagen, but two, I didn't own it.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
I mean, you know what? One thing I tell my students about criminal defendants, I mean, you have a lot of fun with some of these people, man. You never meet, they're not the same and they're always personal. So John's like, hey, why don't you help get the family out of trouble? Why don't you say that Ian and Sean, that you got information on the Ireland case, that Ian and Sean killed him.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
You were there as a witness. and help us get everybody off the hook. Now, Gonzalez also knows at this time, John, that there's a $25,000 reward, I believe, being offered from the Island family. He ain't mentioning that. I don't know what he told Pauline, but I don't think he would have told Pauline. So Frank calls the police.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And so when Frank initially tells the story, they really don't jump on it because they got these other suspects out there where the evidence is pointing to. When no suspects take the fifth and don't want to give any statements and stuff like that, when that happens, they go back to Pauline, right? We're all dried up over here, and we're getting all these pressures to arrest somebody.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
What was that story Frankie was telling us a couple of weeks ago? So now Frank is, and he wants things in exchange. Frank is just, well, he's known as a liar, right? But he's not stupid. You know, if I'm going to give you a story, I want something in return. I mean, most inmates do.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
So if you go back and look, you know, Ian's parents, one of the reasons why the Schweitzer's became targets is because the Schweitzer family lived near the Pauline family.
THREE
Family Feud | Chapter 3
And so they didn't like him. Now, at some point, the Gonzales and Pauline's half-brother and mother, they all got in trouble for cocaine, federal case. So John Gonzales calls up, you know, talks to Frank while Frank is in prison on another sex crime. In jail, I mean, not prison. And said, hey, I got an idea, man.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
Because we didn't want anybody saying that they were tampering with witnesses. So let's say we tell them. hey, man, we found the guy, you know what I mean? And then something happens to him, right? We don't want anybody to be able to say that if our clients was connected to him, that somehow they tipped him off or whatever, you know what I mean?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So it makes it a lot cleaner to say they didn't know anything about this. So it protects them from all these types of different conspiracy allegations.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
And then when we were, like I said, we had an agreement with the lab. And I think, I don't know if, they must have known, I don't know why, but we had an agreement with the lab that whenever they test tonight, and they had to notify both parties at the same time, Hilo and us.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
And so, you know, Wednesday, the 24th, I think it was, I'm in my office, and then, bing, you know, I get the email alert, and I look at it, and there's a lab report, and I'm reading it. And it says that they swabbed him on Friday, July 19th. And I'm looking at, and the lab gets it on Tuesday, the 23rd. And they tested, and within 24 hours, they're able to come back.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
I'm on the phone. I'm like, look, this lab report. He's thinking I'm talking about the one from July 1st. You know, so he keeps talking over. I'm like, no, I'm not talking. I said, Barry, I just sent you the lab report. Will you please open it and read it? And then he opens it and reads it. And then we start calling the prosecutor. You know what the hell's going on. We're leaving messages.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
We're sending emails. They're not responding. This is Wednesday. On Thursday, I sent an email that had been written by Barry. that talks about the suicide concern, you know, is he in custody and all that, because we send it to the, we copy the AG on it, we copy the judge, we send it to the judge, and send it to the prosecutors. Sent it that morning.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
Within five minutes, the prosecutors call him, right? And the next thing we know, the judge sets a conference for Thursday. By this time, I've already searched the jails. He's not in there. You could tell from the, it didn't say that they took him into custody in the DNA report. And the prosecutors wouldn't tell us. They just kept saying, we can't tell you, right?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So when we talked to them, they're like, you know, it's an ongoing investigation. I'm like, you know, did y'all arrest him? You couldn't really tell.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So after they responded the way they did that morning, I sent, you know, we contacted the court bailiff. He told the judge what was going on. The judge told us all to meet at 420 because he's in the jury trial. So at 420, we're on the Zoom with the judge. And now the judge has already searched through all of his, he gets a report on everybody locked up in the state.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So he's already searched that, right? And so he asked why, you know, what's going on? We tell him. And so he says, you know, I searched. He's not locked up. And he turns to the prosecutor. Do you have him? That's when they said, yeah, I know we can't come on and go investigation. And then that's when the judge told him. He said, what?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
What are you investigating that you can't say about whether or not he's in custody? How is that so important to the investigation, whether you got him or not? And so they just kept saying to the judge, we can't comment on ongoing investigation. So then we get off the Zoom. We're on the Zoom with the judge for like maybe 45 minutes, going back and forth on this.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
We get off the Zoom, and then we meet. And Kramer's in a meeting too, right? So we're talking to Kramer, and all of us are meeting. And, you know, at one point, you know, we had been on there for a while, so at one point people were saying, you know what, Who all thinks that he's in custody? Raise your hand. It's like eight of us on the legal team. Who all thinks that he fled?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
Because there's some evidence that he may have spent 10 years on Christmas Island right after this happened from one of his kids' Facebook posts. And so then people are like, who thinks he's dead?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So I said, you know what, I'm going to call them more. So Bill Harrison said, well, you know, we only have one mortgage in Honolulu. When he said we only have, he meant the entire state. So he said anybody that dies on the big island is going to be in Honolulu. So next morning, I called Honolulu. And I'm like, you know, and I don't say Honolulu. I want to know if you have the body.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
I come in like I presume you do, right? Because I don't want them lying to me. So I'm like, you know, can you tell me when you're going to release the body? Can you tell me when you're going to release the body? Something like that. And she refers me to the Hilo Police Department. But she also, like, she looks at, she says, we don't have him here, right?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
And then, but she's like, you know, Hilo would have him at the police department. And I find out that it was a Tuesday that they had taken. And so I called the Hilo Police Department. And the guy answers, and it's a young officer, and he's like, professional standards. And I'm like, you know, I'm looking. I want to know when you're going to release the body of Albert Lord Jr.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
He's like, well, but maybe I can help you. You know, can you spell the last name or something? So I give him the last name. And then he puts me on hold. And, you know, I'm paranoid like you wouldn't believe. Because I'm like, when she told me I had to call the police department, I'm like, oh, shit. You know, I don't care what the chief tells you, right?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
And so I called the police department, and I'm waiting for him to come back. Then it gets disconnected. And I'm like, shit. Then he went back and asked somebody. He said, somebody's calling about this guy named Laurel, right? And somebody told him, hey, you can't give out any information, right? This is what I'm thinking in my head. Get off the phone. He hangs up on me.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So first I went, I'm like, no, I got to call back. Yeah, I was waiting. I was on hold and I got disconnected.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So, thank you. You've been really helpful. One question I have, though, how long do they normally hold the body? When do you think we'll be able to get his body back?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
All right, if we wanted to view it, did we just make arrangements with the detectives?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
Then I started playing stupid about it. I didn't know what a police report number was because I'm trying to get him to say that the body's there. And so I said, you know, why would there be a criminal report for a suicide? Right? So that's what you call a loaded question. So he said something about, you know, anytime we go out and respond. So I knew they went out and responded to the residents.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
Because anytime we go out and respond to a resident, we have to make a police report. And it has a number. So then I get off the phone with him, and I email the judge's clerk. I call Kramer first. I call Kramer. I'm like, man, you know, we was right. So then I notify the rest of the team, and then I email the judge's clerk. I'm like, we need a hearing. And I tell the clerk, like, dude is dead.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
He's like, the judge is in jury trial, but he's going to want to meet as soon as possible. So about 10 minutes later, He shoots an email over to judgments, to everybody now, judgments to see everybody at 12 noon, everybody, all parties.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So, yeah, around February 7th, we hired Kramer. Now, keep in mind, too, the Hilo Police Department, when we're standing out on the courtroom steps, right, giving a press conference after Ian was exonerated in 2023, saying we're going to, you know, look for her killer and we're not going to stop. We want to find it. The Hilo Police Department also...
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
issued a press release saying that they have never stopped searching for unknown male number one. Mind you, they wasn't doing Jack before then. They didn't do Jack after the exoneration. They didn't go out and get Kramer. We're talking about February of 2024. Ian was exonerated in January of 2023. So a year has went by, right? They haven't done anything with the DNA, not nothing.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
So we go get Kramer, and then they don't know that we have Kramer. They don't know that until February 26th when Kramer comes back and says, here should be your suspect.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
I don't know about you, but it was just like I was wrong about everybody who I thought it was. That's how I felt. It's like, God damn. I mean, I mean, I had a list. Right. And so I'm like, I mean, I mean, I was just totally wrong. Totally wrong. And you know what? Had I been on one of these people's one of my suspects, George, I would have convicted him and still been totally wrong.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
I was like, the emotional reaction was finally, finally we're going to find out what happened. Because it was not just we knew the name, but we knew he was living, right? And so it's like, finally, because, you know, when you work on this case for all these years, all of us, man, we used to sit around in the hip office, you know, with our students. And we, you know, did the rape happen first?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
And then she got on a bike, right? Did she know this person? We wanted to know, why did you do this to her? You know, what happened? And so I'm really like, we're going to get some answers. You know what I mean? Because initially we kind of thought, well, since he hadn't been in the coldest, he's probably dead.
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
In 1991, when this happens, and you find a body on a fishing trail. And Albert Laurel lives right near there. And you're trying to solve this crime. You're gonna go talk to the neighbors and go, you know, tell me who frequents this fishing trail? Who comes down here and fishes a lot? Can you tell me? They may have seen something. I want to go talk to him. Do you go over there?
THREE
Hiding in Plain Sight | Chapter 7
Like, do you know who does? Now, somebody down there who knows Albert, because they're all together, would say, hey, man, Albert goes over there. I mean, that's all he do. That's how he makes a living. He fish. So he may have seen something.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Hey, we're happy for you. Goodbye. Not a bus, you know, so, you know, you leave, there's a little bus fare, you know what I mean? Okay, how do I get home? When you're guilty, they take you to your front door or to your halfway house, you know what I mean?
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Well, that kind of started when Randy was a co-director. Randy put together for our Innocence Project a group of former prosecutors. And this is one of the cases the students presented. They were presenting actual cases, cases where we believe our client's actually innocent. They were presenting them to former prosecutors and get their feedback and stuff like that.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
So Frank calls the police. And so when Frank initially tells his story, they really don't jump on it, because they got these other suspects out there where the evidence is pointing to. When those suspects take the fifth and don't want to give any statements and stuff like that, when that happens, they go back to Paul Lane, right?
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
We're all dried up over here, and we're getting all these pressures to arrest somebody. What was that story, Frank, you was telling us a couple of weeks ago? And he wants things in exchange. Frank is, well, he's known as a liar, right? But he's not stupid. You know, if I'm going to give you a story, I want something in return. I mean, most inmates do.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
We had some guest students, about 100 students total in that class. Jenny Hinch, who used to run the Winesons Project, she found out that I used to practice criminal law, so she offered me a position, and she said, you can come and work as a clerk in the Innocence Project for like $12 an hour. As long as I don't go back to prison, I'll come and work for $12.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But I went in, and that's how I started, and that's when I met Ian. Ian was the... first Innocence Project client I talked to over the phone. And so it was interesting because he was in prison, I had just gotten out.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
So Eric gets interviewed the first day by one particular cop. The next day, I believe, another detective comes out there. Look at how he interviews Eric. Eric is telling him I didn't see anything. And he just keeps pressing, like, you had to see something. And this is where you're talking about false confessions or misidentification stuff.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
This is something that you want to look at and you can use to show people how a police detective asking leading questions in an intimidating way can get evidence that's wrong. Because you have to read that report. I mean, I use it to teach the students in class. Eric is telling him, you had to see something.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
And it's almost like in a way to where he's letting Eric know, I think you're lying because you may be involved. So you saw something. And so then Eric starts feeding him what he wants to hear. And now the investigation is going in a way that's been slanted based on bad police work. See, you got a big case, right?
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
You got a young lady who was killed on Christmas Eve, right, in a very horrendous way. Now I need to be the hero. So you got all these detectives trying to solve the case, and they're not talking to each other. And so you got this detective who's different from the one who talked to Eric the first time going back and basically saying, hey, look, I saw that you was interviewed yesterday.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
You got, right, trying to force him to give information. It's not that he's trying to make this story straight. He keeps forcing it. He keeps telling me. So when you go back to Police 101 and you're interviewing witnesses or even suspects, I mean, look at the way he's questioning Eric. Initially, Eric is saying, he's telling him, I didn't see anything. I didn't see what you're saying I saw.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
But he wants him to tell him more because right at that point, they need to solve it.
THREE
The Aftermath | Chapter 2
Like, when I came out, I was on parole, and so they provided services for me. You know, even though I had practiced law and all this other shit, man, they still was like, okay, here's how you get a bus pass. Here's how you get your security card. Here's a list of jobs for you to apply to. If you need to go to counseling, here's your counseling. When you're innocent, they just cut you loose, right?
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
His family, yeah, filled up the courtroom. And what was odd is, it's a lot of times, you know, when you have someone charged with a serious crime, you know, some departments of public safety overflow the courtroom with deputies, right? Like, this is a scary person, right?
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
So somebody's lying, right? Go back and look. I had the students that don't read the transcripts, read the police reports. The transcripts aren't going to tell you what's not in the evidence. The transcripts are going to tell you what came in the evidence. Not all the shit that didn't come in. You have to read the police reports. Go back to the police reports, read them carefully.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
So when we first get there, I mean, they are extremely mean to the attorneys, very mean to one of our volunteer attorneys, very mean to the family members. These are the deputies, right? who believed, at least from my perception, believed that Ian was guilty. And the hearing, as you said, lasted all day, and they had to stay there. They, being the deputies, had to stay there all day.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
And you could see the more that they heard that evidence, the nicer they started becoming with the family members. The more they heard that evidence, right, the more human they seemed to become.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
I think he knew that he was supposed to be coming back for a hearing. He didn't know that he was coming back so soon because he was in quarantine. The Department of Public Services has to fly out to get him and bring him back. And they were saying because of the COVID rules that he would have to stay in quarantine there.
THREE
Christmas in Hawai’i | Chapter 1
And then when he came back here, he would have to be quarantined in the jail before he could even come to court. The next question was, are we going to get a judge that's going to listen?
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Ken had a gathering and my wife and I were able to sit next to Ian for the dinner and be able to chat. And first we were just shocked that there was no apparent anger or hostility or resentment or chip on his shoulder. He just seemed like a very genuinely good person.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
gentle-spirited person who appreciated where he was at the moment, appreciated that we were there talking to him, appreciated everything, of course, that the Innocence Project had done. But the reason I'm mentioning this now is that in talking to him, he said, because we asked, of course, how are you doing?
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
And he said, well, I think I'm doing okay, but I got to tell you, it's difficult for the last 24 years. Somebody has told me when to get up, when to go to bed, when to eat, what to eat. But he said, it's hard making decisions.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Not that it should be, and he seemed reasonably confident that he would get back into the rhythm of daily life, but he said it's just real hard to go from that kind of structure for 24 years to all of a sudden you're just let loose on the world.
THREE
Unknown Male #1 | Chapter 6
Because I had read all of the news coverage of him and watched the TV news coverage of him during the trial period, I had one image of him that was just so different.