Konstantin Kisin
Appearances
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So are you right wing? No, I'm still not right wing. I think you're referring to an article in a video I did saying the title of which was fine, call me right wing. And it's basically just me saying I'm tired of like defending myself against this allegation. I'm still not right wing. But if it's really important for people to frame me in that way, that's fine. They can do it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So I think that it's basically what a lot of people call you if what they want to do is discredit the things that you're saying because they don't actually have a counter argument to what it is that you're saying.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, what's interesting to me was that, so we were in the US before the election, during the election and after the election. And on the day of the election, we flew from Austin in Texas to LA and all the people that we know in Austin were like, what are you doing? You're going to LA for the riots for when Trump wins, you know, there's going to be.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And when we got to LA and we were there on the night of the election and then we were there for a week after, literally like there was nothing. Nobody, there was no reaction of any kind. And I think that was because the scale of the victory was very, very important. It's like nobody can pretend that America didn't vote in this direction anymore. It wasn't Russia collusion.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It wasn't blah, blah, blah. It was like Americans looked at this and went on balance. We prefer this. I thought that was very important. As for whether that has a chance to spread, well, look, America is the place where we all download our memes, right? So I always think of the example of during the summer of BLM when we had protesters in this country in London.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
in front of police officers saying hands up don't shoot in front of cops that don't carry guns it's good like that's not a real thing you've just downloaded the meme yeah and you're misapplying it here about something that really doesn't affect british people in anything like the same way And I think that possibility is there. I hope it's there.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And by the way, I'm not someone who thinks that the Trump presidency is nailed on to be a positive thing for the world. It's not guaranteed. It's an opportunity. And it really fundamentally depends on whether he's able to govern and deliver the things that he promised to the American people.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
One of the fascinating things as well, and this is actually something Francis, my co-host on Trigonometry pointed out, is if you look at the... the kind of the lineup of the Trump campaign. The people at the very top of that are all Democrats, former Democrats. Trump, Elon, Vivek, Tulsi, RFK. They're all former Democrats. And so what you're looking at is not a super right-wing coalition.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Actually, it was really a broad movement that won people over on the promise of a number of things, improving the economy, cutting government waste, closing the border, dealing with illegal immigration, and sorting out the geopolitical situation. None of those things are particularly right-wing, actually.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And he stayed away on the campaign trail from a lot of the more controversial issues like abortion, for example. He was actually very centrist about that.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Now, if he can deliver on those things, if he can close the border and deal with illegal immigration, if America's economy is booming, and if Elon and Vivek take an axe to the government bureaucracy and it's still standing and able to function in the same way that X is still standing after he fired 80% of the people… I don't see how that doesn't inspire people around the world. I don't see it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Because if you look at all of the Western world, I would say there are two problems. They're not unrelated entirely, but they're very big problems in their own right. It's the demographic issue and the government debt issue, right? Almost every country in the Western world, there are some exceptions, is running close to 100% of GDP levels of debt. We are so indebted.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, and it makes people question people's motives. And a lot of people find people's motives more interesting than the results of the things that they're advocating. So if you go and, you know, try to create this beautiful utopian, which everyone's equal, and you end up killing 50 million people in the process, well, you know, that wasn't real communism.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I don't think there is a way to solve that problem without growing your way out of it. You just can't inflict that much pain on the public and survive electorally.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
there would be so many restrictions placed that it would be there would be social unrest to the point where the country gets destroyed well look at what happened in the uk the conservatives came in and said we needed some austerity they cut the government like expenditure i don't remember what the number was but i think it was like one percent or something and everyone the tories are killing people so so how do you cut it you know i mean we just saw this in france right right yeah um so
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The only way to probably to deal with it at this point, if you can deal with it, is to grow your way out of it, right? The UK economy on a per capita basis is smaller now than it was in 2007. People in this country are poorer per head of population than they were before the financial crisis. We still haven't recovered.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The only reason our economy is actually growing, I use inverted commas for people who are listening, is that we import lots of people who they don't increase, they reduce our income per head because they're low wage people. But the politicians can say, well, our economy is grown because look, we've added this person who earns 12 grand a year or something, right?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So if Trump can actually unleash the talents and ingenuity of the American people and allow them to start businesses, to grow the economy, real growth of the economy, which I suspect he will, because all you really have to do is make energy cheap and then the economy will grow. I mean, this is what people don't understand about net zero and all of this other nonsense that we've got going on here.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
is energy is included in the price of everything. Our electricity prices are way higher than most other countries. I think they're four times the ones in America. I saw you tweet that. Yeah. It's Bjorn Lomborg's tweet that I tweeted. So basically when you make energy more expensive, you make everything more expensive. That's why all manufacturing is- Everything needs energy.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Everything needs energy. So GDP is energy transformed is the line. So if Trump's policy of drill, baby, drill means that energy in America is cheaper, that alone will make a big difference. Then you add to that cutting of government regulation and waste if that can happen. Then you put those two things together and you've got real economic growth. Amazing. You close the border.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I'm not talking about like mass deportations or any of that because none of that I don't think is realistic or is going to happen. And you already see people close to the administration rolling all of that back.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Actually, you know, I had an interview on Winston Marshall's show with the head of the Heritage Foundation saying, well, you know, we're going to be able to get rid of 100,000 criminal illegal aliens, but everyone else is going to be voluntary or something. And you're just going, okay, so we're talking more realistically now.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But if you close the border, which is a big problem in all of the Western world, as we know, right? Illegal immigration on a large scale that nobody voted for. If you do that, you destroy DEI and all of this work crap in the institutions. Who wouldn't sign up for that when they're given the option? So it can inspire that sort of renaissance or revival in the Western world.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You were well-intentioned, but you didn't quite live up to the ideals of this great philosophy. Whereas if you actually do things that work, but you have the wrong intentions or you're a bad person, then people don't seem as interested in that.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I hope that it does if he's able to govern properly. And I hope that he does that. And one of the things that I really hope that Trump administration is able to do is not make the mistakes they had to perhaps make the first time, which was to actually consider the opinion of the mainstream media as important.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Because what this election really showed that we just had, this was the first podcast election. Everyone's talked about this to death, right? But what I think that means is that this could be the first podcast administration. God. Well, I'm not saying that's universally positive, by the way.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But what I'm saying is if the New York Times writes yet another piece about how Trump is Hitler for improving relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia or something. Right. He doesn't actually have to give a shit. He could just govern. He's got the mandate. He's not going to run for another term. He's got the Congress. He's got the Senate. He's got the judiciary.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
He's got everything under his control. If he could just resist the natural inclination to go after people who go after him.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
We shouldn't overdo, we shouldn't like overpraise ourselves. The New York Times has a huge audience.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I find that quite an interesting thing because I was in Hungary earlier this year and they have a very actually right-wing government under Viktor Orban. And one of the things that I found out is they were very keen to deal with abortion in some way. They wanted to reduce the number of abortions in Hungary.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It is. Again, I try to caution people against being too convinced of this because the New York Times, I don't know the exact numbers, but I think it has like 10 million paying subscribers. Paying subscribers, right? So there's clearly a lot of people in America who read the New York Times and think it's good and believe it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The point I'm making about Trump is I think it's fair to say – I don't think I'm going out on a limb here to say that The New York Times doesn't like Donald Trump. I think it's fair to say that CNN and MSNBC do not like Donald Trump, right? So why would he care that they have said the same thing they've said about him 10,000 times already? Instead of just governing. He's got the mandate.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
He's got everything he needs to actually govern. Just ignore those people. Just ignore them and govern and do the things. When I say ignore them, I don't mean do crazy shit just because you've got all the power. I mean, deliver the things you promised to the American people. And that was the thing that irritated me about his first presidency was like, you can dislike anything.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Donald Trump, you can dislike the policies that he advocates. But if he's been elected, it is his duty to implement the policies that he ran for because that's what people voted on. And you are now criticizing him for doing that. That doesn't make any sense to me.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
In the same way, like if Keir Starmer in this country, who's a left-wing leader, implements the policies on which he was elected, I don't know what they are because he didn't articulate any during the campaign, but if that were to happen... then I'd be like, well, I can't complain.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I can say I don't like these policies, but I can't criticize him for doing it because that's what people elected him to do. So my point with Trump, just to finish the answer to your question is, if he can govern well and deliver the things that he promised, which is a strong economy, closer of the border, dealing with the work shit, et cetera, I don't see how that wouldn't be inspirational.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
However, There are two factors that I would say that make me less optimistic about the UK in particular than the US. So we can download the meme, but we have a parliamentary system, which means that Donald Trump really, he had to win primaries as one man, and then he could build his team after that. And none of them had to get elected.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Elon Musk, Vivek, Tulsi, RFK, they didn't have to get elected with him, right? In this country, The closest thing we have to Trump is Nigel Farage. Nigel Farage has a party which has five MPs and has a lot of the popular vote in this country. But in order to win, there's 650 seats in the House of Commons, you're probably going to need 300 plus seats to actually win outright.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But they looked around the world and they realized that abortion as a political issue doesn't work. It's an issue that actually loses votes for the right. Even if people tend to agree with the position, somehow it still ends up being a vote loser and it's a bad thing to do. So... What they've been doing, as you probably know, is pursuing very pro-family policies more generally.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That means you have to have 300 people who get elected in their local area as the local MP. So that means you kind of need 300 little Nigel Farages, if that's the metaphor. That's very difficult. The other thing is, for all the talk about, you know, the American election being the podcast election,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I don't know that the podcasting breakdown in this country is necessarily favorable to the center-right or the center or the... Well, who do we know in this country?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But Stephen isn't... He's not a political operator. Correct. Dire of a CEO. Correct.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, there's a couple that you're missing. Rory. So Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell. We've had Rory on the show. I like Rory as a person. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you followed their coverage pre-election.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And again, this is not an attack on them as individuals, but they were wrong about everything. not only were they wrong about everything, they massively doubled down after being wrong about everything. So in the days before the election, Rory Stewart was saying, well, you know, these polls showing that it's neck and neck, they're completely wrong.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
People are afraid to say the truth, which is that Kamala is going to smash this. And on the night of the election, when he was clearly proven completely wrong, he was like, well, I was wrong on the facts, but I was not wrong to be optimistic or whatever it was. And he was just going, okay, well, just take all that aside. These people have no idea what's going on in reality in America.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They were just completely wrong. They are probably the most popular podcast when it comes to politics in this country.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And again, I like Rory as a person. He's a lovely man. He's been on the show. I found him very interesting. And he's been on our show, and we happily have him back. And I'd happily have Alistair back, although I rate him less. But not back. I'd happily have Alistair on. My point, though, is that quite a lot of people in Britain are living in this imaginary world.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
which is reinforced for them by people that they instinctively lean towards. And they're not as aware as you are because you live in the US or as I am because I get a chance to travel there of actually what's going on. And I only realized this, you know, this year because this year is, I've been to America loads of times before, but this year was the year that I actually went to like real America.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I've been in Utah and, you know, Oklahoma City. Fuck me, that's real America. And Tulsa and El Paso in Texas and Fort Worth and Sugar Land and all these other places, as well as your DCs and your New Yorks and Nashvilles and all of that. I really had a chance to Colorado I was in and I traveled around it. So I got a chance to actually meet like real American human beings.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you have X number of kids, you get this tax break. If you have this number of kids.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I realized that the reason that people in the West, in Western Europe don't understand what's happening in America is because they've never been there. So if you are a BBC journalist, What is America to you? Well, America is what people like you, i.e. the media elite, tell you that it is, right? And then if you go to America, you go to New York, D.C., or L.A.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
These are all places that are massively democratic. They're super dominated. I think Washington DC voted like 92% for Kamala Harris in this election, something like that. So you end up in these places that are not... Whether you think Democrats are the best or the worst or whatever, it doesn't really matter. My point is,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They spend a lot of time among people and in places whose views are not representative of the country. And so when you are a British citizen watching the news, you're really watching people who are deeply embedded into an echo chamber. whose echo chamber also tells them that their opinions are the virtuous ones to have.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Exactly. And what they've found is without actually legislating much about abortion, they've reduced the number of abortions in half simply by pursuing policies that make families more appealing for people to have.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so that to me, it's therefore not surprising to me that you even have prominent Tories in this country who are saying they're pro-Kamala.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That's an interesting question. I think all of the things that many of us have been saying about the decline of the West are going to come back a hundred times because what you then see is there's literally no way out. It's unfixable. There's no way out. There's no way out. So the reason I think a lot of people were relieved as I was, was at least in this election- The Trump one.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, the feeling for me was, well, at least there's choice. Like in the UK, you don't have choice. On the issues that I care about, right, which is our country being prosperous, immigration being beneficial to the country. I'm pro lots and lots of immigration. As an immigrant. If it's beneficial to the country. I'm against even small levels of immigration that are detrimental to the country.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Why is right wing a disparaging marker? I think the political realm in which we operate is the framing is, I think deep down, if people are honest, it's like the caricature of the left is that they're wrong, but well-meaning. And of the right is that they're like factually more correct, but evil. Callous. Callous and evil and cruel and nasty. And so even if you're right, you're still wrong.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I'm completely against illegal immigration for that reason. And as you know, the woke shit grinds my gears. So on all of that stuff, we don't have a choice in this country. We haven't had a choice for 14 years.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The conservative government that's just left is virtually indistinguishable from the Labour Party that's just come in to the point where the Labour leader is attacking the conservatives for their failure on mass immigration. And everyone's going, he's got a point. I mean, he's going to make it worse, but he's got a point. Do you know what I mean?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So in America, at least the feeling was, well, okay, they actually have choice. They can choose. If you don't want this continued slide into managed decline, you can vote for something else. Pivot. If you vote for that something else and you don't actually end up having that choice- then you're in deep trouble.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And as you probably know, you know, in the fringes of right-wing discourse, the Curtis Yarvins of the world. Not super familiar. I've met Curtis, but I'm not super familiar with him. He's an interesting guy, but it's not even about him specifically.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
There are a lot of people who up until this point were increasing in profile because they were saying something that I don't necessarily agree with, but I see the logic of, and that is, What good is democracy if you can't vote for the things that you want? If you can't vote your way out of this, is that democracy or is that a fake democracy?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And therefore, if it's a fake democracy, then you're not living in a place of choice. You're living in a place where there's a tyrannical authoritarian structure that's telling you, you must have net zero, you must have woke, you must have DEI.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You're living in the matrix, right? You're being given this... Soma, whatever you want to call it, you're being given this drug that makes you feel like you're living in some kind of... On a piece of ballot paper. Yes. But actually, you're living in hell in which you're stuck with the things that you hate. And even if the majority of you get together and vote against this, it will still happen.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The same outcome occurs. So their argument is... democracy is not working. Why don't we look at alternatives? And alternatives are, you know, that's why that explains the fascination that, as I say, fringes of the right increasingly have with the Putins of the world. Because it's like, well, this is like a strong man who actually fixed this country, you know.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And if Trump fails, I don't see why those voices wouldn't get louder. That's very interesting. I can't see a logical reason why that wouldn't be the case. Do you?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you can't fix it when you've got the Senate, the Congress, the popular vote, the tech bro oligarchs. David Sachs now. David Sachs. You've got a lot of the new media on your side, which is so powerful now in America. You've got literally everything you could possibly have. You as president are independently wealthy. It's your last term. You don't have to pander to anybody.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
A good successor sat in the same organization already. If you can't fix it then, well...
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
how do you fix it that's that would be the question a lot of people ask in that situation so trump must not fail because if he does you know that in many ways was the last chance that that the west had of turning things around what happens if it goes well you mentioned about trump has the opportunity to to hard reset sort of the the western world
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I think if he does well, if the economy grows rapidly and sustainably, if he closes the border and deals with illegal immigration and crime, if he ends DEI and all of this neo-racism in the institutions, if he makes energy cheap, if he ends the foreign conflicts that he promised to end,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I think that is something that is an undeniable proof that what that movement offers is better than what we had. That's why people voted for him the way that they did. And that means that will give massive inspiration to people around the world, especially the Western world. I think that's undeniably the case. Do you think it would give inspiration to the UK? Yeah. I think it will.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That does not mean for the reasons that we already discussed that that will necessarily, that does not mean that that will necessarily result in a political victory, but that will give inspiration to people around the world for sure.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, I think actually what Trump's election will do, and I really realized this particularly when we went to the Trump rally in Madison Square Garden, is
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I think if he's successful in particular, it has the power to entirely deflate that fringe of the right that has become very much like the woke left in the way that it operates, the cancel culture, the identity politics, the grievance, mongering. Trump, one of the things that those people are obsessed about is Israel and Jews.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And Trump is the most philo-Semitic president the United States has had for decades. So, and he doesn't need them.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, and that's what happened when I went to the rally in Madison Square Garden because –
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
full of jews full of israel flags um and every time anyone mentioned israel or like i mean one guy was on stage and just went we're gonna crush jihad and everyone was just loving it so i think one of the reasons i actually talk less about that fringe of the right now even though i just find them intellectually very irritating because they're not very bright is that
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I don't think they're relevant, truthfully. And so I don't really talk about it too much. James Lindsay is trolling them and I enjoy that and I like trolling these idiots. But generally speaking, what I saw in America was they have no purchase in the Trump movement whatsoever. And if Trump is successful, these people will become utterly irrelevant. And by the way,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
quite a lot of those people you know i don't know if you remember the lauren chen situation but there was the revelation that some of these people were being funded from russia um and you know when you see that some of these people like a week before the election saying trump's not my guy or whatever you go Are all those likes on Twitter really organic? Are they really? Everyone's had these.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Are they really? I don't, because I don't see this reflected in real life. No. You know, I think there's, when it comes to social media, our reality is being distorted in a hundred different ways. And one of them is undoubtedly foreign operations. Yeah. Undoubtedly.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, I think if you look at the two campaigns that we just saw, I actually thought that, you know, we went to the Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden. Yeah. Well, we were kind of there in a just like, let's see what's going on here capacity rather than joining in with the salutes. But
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, I think the geography is very important here. So I don't think in the UK or Australia or in Canada we've remotely reached peak woke because DEI and all of this other stuff is so deeply embedded in the institutions and in politics. I mean, look at London. London is run by a guy who's painted the crossings rainbow colors and the police rainbow colors and all of this stuff, right?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I know those are trivial things, but they're symbolic of very strong underlying things where people are being hired or fired based on their demographic characteristics and so on. In the U.S.,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yes, Trump and people like Chris Ruffo and Elon and Vivek, they have an opportunity to absolutely dismantle from the ground up all of these ideological introductions that have occurred over the last 10, 20 years.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But most of this stuff is in government. So if you can strip affirmative action hiring from the government institutions, then everything else will naturally follow. The corporations never wanted to be woke. They just felt they had to.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. And the Jaguars of this world, they're not going to benefit from that, from what's coming. So I think that there's a big opportunity for a reset in America. But even so, it's like you've got the virus and it's infected you and you are still sick, but you have the potential to start recovering. That's kind of how I see it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
In the rest of the Western world, I think woke is going to run and run for a long time.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But I really don't – until the political leadership changes, I don't see how it changes. Because even if you could tell me, well, look, Gen Z men are not woke. Great. What are they ruling? What are they deciding? Who gives a shit what they think? You know what I mean? Other than me and you. So the political power to change the things that are embedded in institutions – That's what this is about.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That's why Trump has a chance to reset it in the US. Then hopefully it's inspirational to the rest of us.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Um, at the moment, I think it's fucked. I really do. Um, I, you know, I, I love this country. I really do. But at the moment I feel like, have you ever heard that Mickey Flanagan joke about going to Brighton? So Mickey Flanagan is a very famous, very successful British comedian.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Um, and I remember he did a show in Brighton and, um, he talked about, you know, coming, the contrast between London, the big city and Brighton, the seaside town that he comes in. He went, You know, you get on the train in London, you're really stressed and you just, you get on the train, it's full, it's packed, it's uncomfortable.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I would say, actually, if you dig down into the core of the Trump campaign, its message is actually very positive, I would argue, which was the Make America Great Again thing and what we saw at the rally, too. It was really about... people who love their country and wanted to be successful. That's what I saw there.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And then you just, you get off at the station and bright and you, you smell the sea air and you can feel the ambition just draining out of you. It's kind of how I feel about the UK. And I know that. And the reason I'd say that is that all the bright and talented people that I know are leaving. Anyone who can is. All the rich people are leaving.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Right. So we're losing the people who have created the jobs. who are creating the jobs and who are going to create the jobs. And one of the reasons is they look at the environment that we're operating in.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
We've talked about high energy prices, but this government has decided that the people who it needs to tax are the businesses, basically, particularly the smaller side businesses, which is where so much creativity really happens. And then there's all sorts of other things about infrastructure, housing, demographics that are going on.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
We talk about net immigration figures and what no one really talks about is the fact that what we're actually doing is we're chasing out all the people who create wealth and have wealth, who pay the taxes. And we're replacing them with people coming in towards the bottom of the jobs market at best if they're actually working at all.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so your net immigration figure of 900,000, that includes you having lost some of your best people and replace them with people who are not contributing.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, and so everyone I know who actually had a successful business that's portable, they're moving to Dubai. They're moving to America. They're moving to all sorts of other places. And what they say is very simple. Well, look, I want my kids to go to a school where they're not taught that they're trans. I want to pay reasonable taxes, which in some places is like 0%.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I want clean, safe streets, which you do not have. I don't go on the tube very much these days, just from a... And I'm not in London that often, actually. And I went on the tube the other day during daytime. It was like five, six o'clock.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And there was kids running absolutely rampant all over it, jumping over barriers, not paying, pushing each other on the escalators, smashing the stop button, like really causing genuine nuisance. And I watched the staff watch them jump over barriers and do nothing.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And this extends more broadly. I saw the labor government's talking about, you know, they're going to reduce crime. Well, street crime is up very significantly. And one of the reasons it's up is that it's not really being dealt with by the police. I mean, anyone who I had my car broken into a few years ago, window smashed. There was a CCTV camera right above it. I called the police.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You can't call. I had to email the police. because they don't answer the phone unless it's like someone's been misgendered or something. And they emailed me back saying, we've investigated, we can't find anything right under CCTV camera. Here's your crime reference number.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
There was a viral video that you probably would have been seen of a guy who deliberately left a bike on the street with a geolocator.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
When I looked at the Harris campaign or the way that she conducted interviews or the way she responded to challenging questions, that was all entirely pivoting to how evil and wrong and bad Trump is. So by the end of the campaign, I didn't think many people knew what she stood for. Whereas with Trump, at least, look, the political side of like, these are the bad guys. We're not like them.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. He got nicked. They tracked it down to the house where it was being stored. They gave the police the information. The police said, we've looked into it. Here's your crime reference number. We can't do anything.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Great news. Exactly. Now, by the way, I don't want this to come across as if I'm criticizing police officers because I know police officers and I know that a lot of them really are working very, very hard. But the priorities and the resources they have for set from above don't seem to manifest themselves in this kind of low level crime being addressed.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Now, you might say, well, you know, there's some kids not paying for the tube. Who cares? Well, actually, the broken window series is entirely correct.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you are observing people engage in low-level criminal behavior, it makes people feel much less safe about the overall experience because they know that, well, if they're not going to enforce this, well, what reason do I have to think that if my phone gets stolen?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And they aren't. And they aren't. I know people who've left because of single incidents. I know a really wealthy guy who left the UK because she was walking out of a restaurant in Mayfair with a nice watch on his wrist and his pregnant wife.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Three guys jumped out of a van with balaclavas on, smashed him to the floor, punched him a few times, pushed his pregnant wife aside, got the watch off him, got back in their van. Police don't give a shit. No real investigation, nothing.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I think it's partly because the economy isn't growing and so there's not a lot of money to be put into policing. And when you think that net zero is the way to prosperity, i.e. driving up energy prices because you want to feel green or whatever, you want to reduce Britain's contribution to global climate change from 2% to 1%, that's the great ambition. Well, then you're not going to have money.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And when you don't have money, you can't pay police officers. And when you don't have police officers, people engage in crime. Yeah.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That's always going to be part of politics. But actually, I did think I came away from the, to my great surprise, actually, very relieved that Trump did win and very hopeful for the world as a result, which is not a position I thought I would be in before the election, actually. But I think going to that rally really changed my mind about a lot of this.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, I know what you mean. And I think the answer to that, and I know I keep banging on about net zero in this conversation, but the answer to that is to scrap net zero because what those people need is meaning and purpose. And for the vast majority of working class men, the primary source of meaning and purpose is going to be a job. Yeah.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And when you have a job that is a meaningful job, that you're making something, you're building something, that you're making good money, that you're providing for your family, that you feel like you have upward mobility. And upward mobility doesn't have to look like I grew up in Newcastle and then I started a YouTube channel. Now I live in Austin, Texas.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Upward mobility might be, you know, I made 30 grand a year for 10 years and now I'm making 35. And now I've got a promotion at work. I own a home. I own a home, right? Most people really don't need very much to be happy, to be honest. And it's a tragedy that in most of the Western world, and especially in the UK, the thing that we used to consider, like then what is the American dream?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The American dream is you arrive with nothing but the shirt on your back and your kids go to university, you have a house, maybe a small business, you pass it on to them and their children are- Better off. Really better off. Well, if those people that you're talking about, where I agree with you, there's an underlying malevolence. And it's not malevolence, it's anger, really. It's frustration.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It's frustration and anger. And what is that anger about? Well, the anger is about the feeling that you're not going to be able to to do the things that you thought you would. And what are they? Well, you get a job, you get a house, you have some kids, they're gonna be slightly better off than you. You're gonna have dignity, you're gonna have community, you're gonna be respected. Meaning, mastery.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Right, now, if you have a society which has effectively said, we're going to do a green accounting trick. We're going to take your jobs, We're going to put them in India. We're going to put them in China where they're going to make the same steel or the same cars or the same whatever they used to make. They're going to do it dirtier. Of course they are because it's a much less developed country.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And then we're going to import that steel and we're going to import those cars back into the UK so we can pretend that we're green. Well, you combine that with this person no longer having a job and our economy, as I said, we're poorer now than we were in 2007. What did you expect?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Can we do one more thing on just that? Absolutely. So one of the things that we've talked about in the UK is like, oh, we need to build infrastructure. We need to build transport links. And it's like, why do you need a better train line to know where? Yeah.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
um and and so what you really have to do is you have to and that's why you know i was talking to mary harrington who i know you're a fan of too at our christmas party actually and she was saying something i really have been thinking about as well which is i think if we're in the offering solutions space the solution for the uk is to accept the reality that's always part of the first bit of the solution is to accept the reality that you know a slogan of make britain great again isn't going to work because we're not going to
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
We're not going to recolonize India. Do you know what I mean? We're not going to rebuild the British Empire.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
What I think we could do if we really wanted to, but this would require both a political and a cultural shift on a level that would be extremely significant, would be to recognize that over the 20th century, Britain went from being the center of Western civilization to being the provincial part of it. We're on the periphery now. The center of Western civilization after World War II
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
during World War II, I would say, shifted from Britain to America. We are now effectively the European outpost of American civilization. That's a great point. That's what we are. Now, what does that mean? Well, what that means is we have to lean in to that. That means we have to download the right memes from America.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Instead of downloading the hands up, don't shoot meme, what we should be downloading is, okay, we want economic growth memes. How do you do that? Well, you're going to have to make energy cheap, slash regulation, et cetera. You're going to have to do the right trade deals with that world.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That means all sorts of other things that we borrow from them and apply to ourselves, as opposed to thinking that we know best. We clearly don't. Otherwise, our society wouldn't be as screwed up as it is. And part of that is you're going to have to give people in deprived parts of the country work.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And you're going to have to find ways of employing them and actually creating things that are of value. And that means, yes, we in the UK may end up paying more for some of the things that they make, but that money is going to go to your neighbor and instead of the perfectly nice guy in India doing the same job.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But if we want our society to hold cohesively together, some of the extremes of the globalization process, that is the reason why those people in Newcastle are angry and malevolent, mean and nasty. We're going to have to find ways to actually give them jobs and employment. And that means not chasing out the people who are job creators.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And that means not pricing them out of the country by making business impossible.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, what his quote about that, Thomas Sowell's quote about that is that's the history of the modern West over the last 30 or 40 years. And I think it's universally true. I mean, we're sitting here in London, for example, where the mantra is diversity is our strength. And the more it's evident that that has flaws in it, the more we double down on the statement, right? So a lot of this is...
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, they're both true in the sense that if you are a teenager in Newcastle listening to this conversation, the world is your oyster. Look at Chris, right? Look at Chris. Look at other people who inspire you. You have the opportunity. You have access to the global economy with the internet and everything. You can make it. You can do that.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But at a structural level, at the level of society, not everyone who's who went to your school, had the ability to become Chris Williamson, a lot of them just needed to have a great job in the local factory. That would have been the right solution.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
uh sloganeering versus reality and i think it's really been amplified by social media to a great extent because i think um things that are not possible in the real world are possible online online you're an avatar which can change its sex it can change its uh everything about it you can be effectively whoever you want to be on you can make statements that are never stress tested Correct.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Six-year-old yelling the C word. That's what makes Britain great. Make Britain great again. No, he's bang on, man. He's bang on.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
um i look i do think part of it is the weather to be honest dude it's huge it's a huge massive influence you know what it's like you come out to austin texas when was the first time you came out this year february something like february march maybe march time i actually don't like the weather in austin to be honest march is fine march is fine yeah well you only came in march and then you fucking came back in october yeah between november and march the weather in austin is fine beautiful
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But if you spend a week in LA and you just look around, oh, I can see why these people are happy because the weather is really nice. So I think that's part of it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Compensate. Yes, exactly. You have to compensate for it. And the compensation for it is like if you go to central London, the nice parts of it, it's a beautiful place. It's a beautiful place. And when on those three days a year when Britain is sunny, it's the most beautiful country in the world. But what you have to do is make the other things in this country so good that it trumps that. And
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
that means people have to have a better quality of life than they otherwise do. And that means they have to be able to afford a home. That means they have to be able to raise their kids and all the rest of it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You know, I was very persuaded by a book by a guy called Desmond Morris called The Human Zoo, in which he talked about the fact that essentially all the problems that we see in modern human society are exactly the problems you get if you put animals into those exact conditions. So in the zoo, the animals that are there, they have much less space than they need.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They may be surrounded by other animals that they don't necessarily want to be surrounded by and all sorts of other things. And they have the exact same outcomes in terms of interpersonal violence, mental health, failure to reproduce and on and on and on. So partly this is just a problem of the fact that we have a... very, very broken housing market, which prices people out of it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And the houses here are very small. So most people end up flat sharing in central London or whatever, living four to a flat. Well, are you going to expect those people to be happy? Are you going to expect them to have kids?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That's personal space. And then all of the other things that build on top of it. So you have to have A fundamental shift in the way that this country operates. And in order for that to happen, maybe we need to hit that, you know, alcoholics rock bottom.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They're tested only by whether they get likes or they don't get likes. And you see this on the left and the right. There are things both the far left and the far right will say that are absolutely not in any way related to the truth. But they are very appealing to people's feelings. And so they'll do that. Look, the reality is the truth is very unpopular.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, he is saying the Tories failed, which we all know is true, but I don't think he's going to make things any better. So I think this situation is going to continue the way it's been going because, as I say, we know this from having people like Sweller Bravman on our show. He basically said...
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The reason I, as Home Secretary, the person in charge, could not reduce immigration was not actually the thing that most other people are saying, which is the civil service doesn't lay, although I'm sure parts of that are true. It's that our own government didn't want it to happen. And the reason is they know that if we reduce mass immigration...
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
we are going to have a problem with the economy because the headline figure will be, well, we're no longer growing by the amazing figure of 0.7%. We're actually not growing. We're going to have to be honest with the British people about that. So yeah, I think that until people are prepared to be very honest, that's not going to happen. This is why I use the metaphor of hitting rock bottom.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That's, as you well know, that's when you actually confront the reality of where you are.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, he's coming on the show soon.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
This is the thing that a lot of people will say in response to this, which is, you know, those that do remember, remember the 70s. I don't remember the 70s. I wasn't born in either of you. But what they will tell you is the reason Thatcher ended up being so popular is she came in at a time when literally the dead weren't being buried and rubbish was piling up in the streets. or shortly after that.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And always has been because the truth is messy, unpleasant, complicated. The truth probably doesn't agree with you on a lot of things just necessarily because it's not going to fit exactly to the worldview that you have. So it's very unpleasant and it's much easier to engage in sloganeering for yourself as well as for society.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And she created a country full of aspiration and drive and a willingness to do business and cut regulation and all of this other stuff. And this is why we talk about the Trump victory has the potential, but as we've been discussing, there's a long, long way to go and a lot of things need to get turned around.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So my view on it is that it's my duty as someone who's an immigrant to this country, to whom this country has given a lot, has given the opportunity to be who I am, to give it my best shot in terms with the tiny amount of influence that I have to do everything that I can. But I'm not wedded to the idea of going down with the ship.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And this is the point I would make about, there's a lot of sneering about this idea of the talented and the wealthy and the successful leaving. Oh, these are mercenary people. We didn't want them anyway. A lot of them really aren't mercenary at all. A lot of them would have much rather stayed in the UK. A lot of them would have much rather had their business in the UK.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
A lot of them would have much rather created jobs in the UK than in Dubai or in Texas or somewhere else. A lot of them would love to be here. But the problem is the only people who do end up staying are people who are either too rich to care. In other words, they don't mind paying 50% tax because they've got so much money. They've got their children in a nice school or whatever.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They're protected from most of the crap that the rest of us have to deal with. And so they just, you know, enjoy going from the club in Mayfair to the house and in wherever and they have a great life and there's no reason for them to leave. And then everyone else who can't physically leave because they just don't have the opportunity to do that.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But the slice of people in the middle, a lot of them really don't want to leave. I don't want to leave the UK. I really like it here. What do you think you're going to do? I'm going to wait and see.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But the point I'm making to you is people who are, by the fortune of the opportunities they have, not wedded to this country, but not rich enough or successful enough to be able to cope with what's happening. Liminal spaces. That space of people are not mercenary at all. They are just being forced out.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And if I'm one of them, I will hate and regret that, but I'm not going to stay forever in a country that I think is declining and going into degradation. Why would I? And particularly as a father. My wife and I, you know, I'm 40 something years old. By the end of my, you know, I will live out my life in this country comfortably.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Even if the, you know, the crime and the whatever continues to go, I'll be able to afford to live in a part of the country or move further and out from the big cities or whatever that I can live the next 40 or 50 years without really things being terrible. But why would I condemn my children to that? when I have the opportunity to offer them a better life?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And that's really the question that people will be asking. And the people who run our country and the people who make these decisions have to ask themselves, what are they offering to the next generation that's going to make them want to be here, as opposed to seeing this country, like many other countries have been seen in the past, as a sinking ship from which you want to escape?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
What are you doing to prevent that? That's the question.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Look, there's a lot of, I have an article in my sub stack, which is also a video called The Real Reason the Mainstream Media is Dying. And I think there's actually a lot of economic and other drivers of this. People in our space like to go, oh, they've been discredited. Well, actually, if you apply the same standards to new media, most of the new media is equally discreditable.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
No. And it's, you know, the amount of fact checking that happens. Which is held to way less rigorous standards. Right. That's basically all the difference is. It's like people on a podcast who will have some crazy guy on who's talking completely nonsense. What did you expect? It's just, you know, it's me. We're just shooting the shit. Right.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Have a bigger audience than MSNBC or CNN who then go, look at how they got this tiny fact wrong. So there's a lot of this bullshit going on, I think.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But the real reason is that I think the real shift is less about that, actually. And I think a lot of it is to do with the economics of how media works. If you think about what a news channel is or a newspaper is, it's basically they are buying news. individual creators, packaging them together and offering it to people as a package.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You no longer need to do that because algorithms exist and you're able to curate your own stuff. And it also doesn't really make financial sense for the content creators. Nobody could put you on TV now and it's not because
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Um, of, of the, because you think TV is discredited is because they don't have the audience to offer you or the money to offer you or whatever, because it makes more sense for you to cut out the middleman and go straight to your audience. The same for me with my sub stack. It's the same for me with trigonometry on YouTube. So, um,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That's kind of the way people seem to- Morally. Morally wrong. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's what I noticed, right? Because my journey into all of this world, as you know, was like, hey, guys, maybe free speech is quite important. Oh, right wing. I was like, what?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
What's happening is the mainstream institutions are simply losing the ability to maintain the top talent. And over time, you will see that must customization that we talked about with drinks applied to content as well.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And probably, you know, the next big thing is going to be some sort of thing on your phone, which curates on an algorithm basis, all the content that you like from different platforms. As opposed to being like, hey, I'm going on YouTube and I'm seeing this.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you had a thing on an app on your phone that went, well, here's the newspaper article you really want to read, the sub stack from whoever, the video from whoever, et cetera. A couple of tweets that are, yeah. Exactly. Um, so the, the economics of the whole thing are changing, uh, and, uh, there's just a lot more competition now. So people have way more choice.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so you can, you can go to wherever your particular preferences are being pandered to in the best possible way. And you can get exactly the thing or outrage or outrage or whatever. Um, and, uh, you know, as I say, for better or worse, you're going to get exactly what you want.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, I don't think that's really happened in the sense that people think it's happened. I think what's happened is a lot of people have made loud exits. I don't think that the vast majority of those left-wing people have left to X. Some have, some have, they post more on Instagram now or whatever. But broadly speaking, nobody wants to be on the third best social media platform.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, and I think usually the easiest telltale sign of working out that someone's full of shit is if they have a single explanation for all the problems that they identify and they're not willing to recognize the trade-offs in these situations. So I think in answer to your question, why is this happening, even more so now.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The network effect is very real. And so I don't think, We're actually going to split off into our own political commentary websites because the interaction is quite valuable with different sides. But we will see how that evolves. I mean, one of the things I am hopeful with X is that I was incredibly grateful to Elon for buying it and for the changes that he's made.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But I do think there's more work to do, things that he himself identified when he took over, like dealing with the bot issue. And it has become a bit of a cesspit.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. Do you think Trump would have got in if Elon hadn't bought X? Nobody knows. I suspect not, but maybe he would have done. I don't think anybody really knows. I think Elon's support and X was a big factor. Cool thought experiment. But I really hope that over time what happens is Elon continues to improve X and there are improvements that could be made.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And certainly finding a way, like I don't need to see the N word in every reply thread. Do you know what I mean? Do you see what I'm saying? Like that would be quite nice. And I'm sure there's ways of dealing with that. You know, Eric Weinstein, when we had him on, we had a kind of back and forth and I sort of accused him of not having solutions and I don't have solutions exactly, but I think.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The problem Jordan Peterson put his finger on a long time ago is that online anonymity causes a lot of issues. Online anonymity is also extremely valuable, but there's got to be some way of finding some kind of golden middle.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so my point is, I'm not a snowflake who's triggered by some unpleasant word in the thing. I just recognize that if we're going to have a public square, the most retarded person ever shouting the most offensive word that he can think of the loudest is probably not conducive to a healthy discussion.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I just think we live in a world where we're much more governed by emotion and feeling than we are by the heart. You know, I'm reading Churchill's diaries of World War II right now. And it's funny to the extent to which the stuff that he clearly takes for granted in describing things is now... would now be completely abhorrent to our sensibilities.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. After the election, a lot of people, AOC did it. Among other people. And what I said about that is they were sheep when they put them in their papayas and they're sheep now when they're removing them. And I think that's true. And the point I was trying to make is not that I don't welcome people doing that. The point I was trying to make is that
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
A lot of people make decisions not on the basis of what they think is right or true or moral or whatever, but on the basis of what other people are doing. And it's an important thing to keep in mind when we talk about a lot of these social movements because they're really driven by a very small number of people who seem to have currency or power in that environment.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And that's a kind of reassuring thing in many ways about the possibility of change. We talked about the UK and how stuck it feels at the moment. Well, all it takes is a significant number of high status people to have a different perspective and that perspective then becomes the dominant one as we saw in America with the Trump election.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, for example, one thing I actually didn't know was, you know, the evacuation of the British expeditionary force from Dunkirk. People would have seen the movie. That only was possible because there was a unit at Calais, which is further south of Dunkirk, which was basically ordered to stand to the death. So we were like, we're going to sacrifice all these people.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But yeah, there is a readjustment happening in response to the landslide that Trump managed to secure.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that can happen, especially when the underlying concepts are as ridiculous as they are. People will then use and it was you're right. It was very funny because you literally had people writing articles in The Guardian about why they're woke. And then like six months later saying, oh, well, these right wing people are calling us woke.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I can't remember who said this, but there's this very famous line that things that can't last forever won't. If something can't go on forever, it won't. And so when we look at the direction of Western society over the last 10, 15 years, we talked about it in the UK, we've talked about it in Europe, and to some extent in the United States, unless Trump really is able to turn it around.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you run very high levels of debt,
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
if you have high levels of crime, if you have high levels of illegal and legal immigration that fundamentally change the values and culture of a country, if you refuse to prioritize the citizens of your own country and say, we want to take care of our people, if you refuse to pursue economic growth at the cost of other things, because that's what you have to do because everything is trade-off.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They're going to die so we can save these people. And they did. And they did. Wow. Do you know how many people died? I don't know, but they fought almost to the death. Then they pulled out the commanding officer. They gave him a direct order. You have to get on this boat and leave and leave your men behind because we're going to need you later.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So if you want more economic growth, you might have less climate obsession or whatever. If you have a situation where young people can't advance, as we've talked about, if we have a situation where large communities of people don't have access to meaningful work, on and on and on. If that goes on for a period of time, I know from my Soviet experience that societies don't always last forever.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And then if you actually look at history, you know that no society lasted forever. ever. So when things are bad and continually so and keep getting worse and this is maintained over a period of time and on top of that you're told actually this is the right way to go, it's not unreasonable in that situation to say, well, If we carry on going in this direction, this is going to end badly.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Now, at the same time, people like me who make this point often get accused of like scaremongering, whatever, you know, and it's true. Like, I remember in the 90s when I was talking to my dad about my job prospects, he was like, look, Definitely don't be a lawyer because on current trends by the year 2000, everyone in the world is going to be a lawyer.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Now, surprise, surprise, not everyone in the world is a lawyer. And so societies do change track over time and people change track over time. But it's the job I feel of people like me who've had that experience of knowing that society doesn't last forever to remind people that like it's all our civilization is, is like a big Jenga block. Like you can pull some out and it will stay standing.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But if you pull all of the cause bits out, it is actually capable of collapse. This isn't guaranteed to last forever.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I get it, you know, the vast majority of Western citizens are, historically speaking, very passive, very, very unwilling to revolt, very unwilling to engage in violence, very unwilling to overthrow the government, very comfortable by comparative standards to previous, you know, centuries ago where it's literally like, well,
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I could like die tomorrow of disease and hunger, starvation, because you're not looking after me. Or I could try and overthrow you. Like, what do I really have to lose? Most people in the West are not like that. And so the people in charge are very insulated and protected.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yes, I get it. But you've got to recognize that that can change over time. And I would really like us not to push as far as we possibly can to find out where that line is, where you piss people off enough. Do you see what I mean? Is that a risk, do you think? Not right now, but it was in the summer in this country.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
We had riots in this country from people who, as you rightly say, the media and other people tried to call them far right. I thought the vast majority of them were not remotely political at all. So what does that tell you? It tells you that there's a significant body of the population who are very, very, very frustrated.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And then they allowed the small remnants of the British unit to surrender. If you look at the way we talk about many conflicts that are happening at the moment, there is no recognition that casualties are part of conflict, for example, right? This has now become completely abnormal to our way of thinking.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. The kindling is undoubtedly there. And by the way, not just among those people you saw from the Muslim community, the feeling that like, well, we got to go and tool up and be in the streets to defend ourselves. Now you have those two forces rising at once. It's not a good outcome.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so, no, I'm not, I'm not saying again, like when I had this, I don't know if you saw my conversation with this journalist about Elon Musk. It's a recorded conversation with him trying to interrogate me about why I agree with Elon that civil war. It's a video on our channel. It's done a crazy numbers because he's trying to, it shows you all the sleazy old school approaches.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Was it for your channel or for somebody else? For our channel. Who was it? It's like NBC journalist versus Constantine kissing about Elon Musk or something like that. And he tries to catch me out and it really doesn't end well for him. But the broader point is Elon said, looking at the riots in the UK, the logical conclusion of this or something like that is civil war. And I think he's right.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
That doesn't mean that I think we're there now. It doesn't mean that I think we're guaranteed to get there. And that we can't intervene. And it certainly doesn't mean that we can't intervene. I think the reason that Elon and I are both saying this is a possibility is we'd like it not to happen. But for it not to happen, things have to be improved.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And my invitation to the people who have the ability to change things to the extent that they do is to recognize that, yes, we're not there right now, but you carry this shit on for another 20 years. you have no idea what the situation is going to be like.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But it happens in everything, you know this. I actually know personally somebody whose mother went to the hospital because she had diabetes and the doctor said, if you keep up the diet that you have, you will die and have very serious complications as a result of your diabetes because you're obese. And that person, who's my friend's relative, reported the doctor for being offensive or whatever.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And this is what people often do. It's like if you say, if you only eat ice cream, you're actually going to get fat and be unhealthy. People sort of like they blame you for telling them that truth. And this is the same thing. It's like nobody who's predicting that we're heading in the wrong direction wants us to be heading in the wrong direction. On the contrary.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But you get blamed for warning about the things that end up happening. Yeah. And it doesn't make any sense to me. So I, just to be clear, I want the West to be prosperous, successful. I want it absolutely unashamedly to be the dominant civilization in the world. I don't want any of this multipolar bollocks. Our civilization is the best civilization on the planet.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so there are lots of things in which we've moved on to this illusory world that exists in our heads in which everything is supposed to be perfect. Therefore, if it's not perfect, it's someone else's fault.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Its values, such as they were classically, not a lot of all this other rainbow bullshit, are the right values. They're the best values human beings have ever come up with. Freedom in every form, liberty, the capitalist model, which has areas that need managing carefully, but broadly speaking is about unleashing the talents of human beings and rewarding them for cooperation.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And all of these other things that we've developed over time, they are the best values. I'm not saying we have to go and impose them on anybody else. In fact, that's not how freedom works. People have to buy into it. And so, you know, I'm not into going and bombing Iraq into democracy, bombing Afghanistan into freedom, because clearly it doesn't work. But Our civilization is the best.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Our civilization needs to be strong, confident, prosperous, and united. And that is very far from where we are. And that's the goal I'd like us to be working with. So when I say we're heading in the wrong direction, what I mean is let's head in this direction instead.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
uh i first of all it changes you in a way that isn't conscious first and foremost so i remember literally like a week after finding out that my wife was pregnant i was driving into the studio someone cut in front of me and i in and i later realized i hadn't reacted in the way that i used to react so in in the past i would have been like what are you doing and i was just like you know what i just got i've got somewhere to be i haven't got time for this bullshit you know
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So it changes you in that way. It's a very humbling experience for a number of reasons. One of them is my firm belief is that you can never be happy until you've forgiven your parents. I don't think it's possible. I don't think a human being can be happy until they've forgiven their parents. Forgiving isn't the same as condone, accept that what they did was right in every way.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You just can't be happy and fulfilled until you've let go of the resentments that everyone has towards their parents one way or another. Everybody has them. Even the people who had the best childhood, there was still, you know, when they put the egg on your silver plate, you know, there was something imperfect about it or whatever.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So one of the things that really helps with that, I found, is that you've got the mini me, as you say, and you suddenly recognize, oh, wait, I am doing the best with the resources that I have and I'm not perfect. And then I look back at my parents. So my parents had me when my mother had been 18 for four days. My dad was 20. I was an accident.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
There were two deeply impoverished students in Moscow in the Soviet Union in the 1980s. There were no books about raising kids. There was no internet. There was no, can I Google this? Can I Google that? My mom tells the story to this day of how one day when I was a toddler, she came home and discovered me as a toddler. Maybe not even came home. Maybe she was in another room or something.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I had this triangular pack of milk that I was glugging, this carton of milk that we had in the Soviet Union, drinking it. And she was horrified because she was using that milk to make the porridge or whatever. And that was the only milk that we could afford that day. So when I look at that versus the opportunity I have with my son and
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And then I just gradually discovered, you know, thinking that you should be allowed to speak freely makes you right wing, which when I was in my early 20s, you know, George Carlin and Bill Hicks, these were my heroes when I was growing up, these great comedians.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. Now, to be honest with you, I don't think that having a child isn't going to solve all those problems, but it's certainly a helpful factor in understanding the context of that. And it's just very humbling in understanding your own imperfections, recognizing that you don't always behave in the best way, and then actually taking action to remedy that and realizing...
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
this I've gone to the next level now I have to be at the next level I have to be better I have to be you know I have to deal with the shit that I still haven't dealt with that I didn't realize I had and all of that stuff so on a personal development perspective amazing then It connects you fundamentally, I believe, with the past and the future in a way that nothing else does.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It connects you with the past in the sense that you recognize that you are just passing on some things that happened for centuries before you got here. And also that you are the custodian of the future and that your child is going to be the custodian of the future too. So to that extent, it makes me think much more... about the country that I live in.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It makes me want to contribute more, to be a more positive influence in the world, to improve the society that I live in, or as we talked about earlier, to find one that matches my values and creates the opportunities I want for my children going forward. So it makes me really, really care about the place that I live in because I know that... I will be living here even after I'm dead.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
See what I mean? So that's another one. It also puts a lot of strain on the relationship you have with your wife because you've suddenly got less time, less time together, more things are difficult, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so that means you have to go to the next level as a couple. You really have to up your game together.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, and the management of human beings too, right? I heard this great thing, just as an aside, I wanted to share with you Warren Buffett's three things that you need in people that you employ. It was integrity, intelligence, and energy. And people think that the worst you could possibly have is someone who's low integrity, low energy, and low intelligence. And he's like, that is not true.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
The worst thing you can have is someone who's high energy, high intelligence, and low integrity.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, or stealing company money or whatever it is. But anyway, yeah, of course. Jordan said this to me, actually. Um, I remember talking about this and he asked me, uh, about, you know, what difference running trigonometry had made. And I talked about managing people and he was like, oh yeah, running a business is like a fatherhood by proxy, which I think to some extent it is.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Hopefully your employees are not bawling their eyes out and shitting their pants every two hours, but nonetheless. Depends how many episodes we try to do in a day. Yeah. Um, but yeah, of course you're more prepared. I mean, the more I, the one thing I say to everybody who asked me this is like, whatever it is that, you know, is lacking in your skillset, get it sorted before you become a parent.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Like if you don't know how to ride a bike, learn to ride a bike before you become a parent. If you don't have to drive a car, learn how to drive. If you don't have to manage your emotions, learn to do that before you.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
like potential father constantin you'd have been like hey man you've got nine months like fucking that's a good area that you could focus on so you don't need to do it once he's arrived the most important thing is um i think it's a mistake most people made my wife and i definitely made it which is once the child is born you totally forget about your relationship and you're just like how do we how do we like actually like keep this baby alive and you don't go out on dates and you don't spend time together with the romance can suffer
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It's not just romance. It's the connection. It's fundamentally the connection. And so there's a danger that you become business partners who are dealing with a difficult problem as opposed to a couple who's like a couple and then the baby is kind of there. You know what I mean? And so there was definitely a period where we didn't do enough of that. So now we're like having a day every week.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Making sure that we're spending time together, having lots of conversations, lots of flowers, lots of all of that. Just really making sure that the relationship is first, the parenting is second in the sense that you can't really be a good parent if your relationship is not working optimally. So that's definitely, definitely very important.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And then, you know, I believe that all performance in every area ultimately comes down to how psychologically aligned you are with who you want to be, you know? So if you, whatever psychological issues you have, they are going to be the thing that affects whether you're a good boss or not, whether you're a good dad or not, whether you're a good husband or not, all of those things.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
So that feeling of continually working on yourself. I'm reading a book now that somebody in LA gave me about how to be a good husband. The next one is how to raise boys. The next one is, you know, so that's where my focus is now is how do you improve in those areas? And one of the reasons I'm so obsessed with that is it's like the impact is the greatest, right?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
A two-year-old really takes on the lessons of whatever it is that you're teaching them.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah. But perhaps irreversibly so. So you really want to make sure that you're like – you can't squeeze the crap out of the sponge again. So you want to make sure that you're at your best.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yeah, it's interesting. I don't mean to be picky with the metaphor, but it's not like there's five more gears vertically. It's not like there's a sixth and the seventh and an eighth gear. It's more like when you are one of the driven people like us and you're obsessed with your work and you love what you do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It can be tempting to just go, well, there's this other area of life, which is personal relationships where it's like, well, as long as I'm making enough money and being successful out here. You don't need to worry about that. I don't really need to worry too much about that.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I fundamentally don't believe that, which is why, you know, in some ways I really admire people who don't have an amazing woman by their side, as I've been lucky to have, who are still able to be successful. Because I know that for me, like, there's no fucking way that would have happened, you know? So...
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
uh that i really needed to be pulled back into like as the success of our channel has happened and everything else i've really had to be dragged back into okay this is a time to go back to the thing you did 10 15 years ago where you go okay the relationship isn't exactly how i want it let's focus on this let's work on this
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Um, and so it's, I find life is like those five bars that you're trying to balance at the same time. And as this one goes up, this one is slipping and, and whatever. So I'm just trying to raise all of them at the same time as much as I can. And that means, you know, uh, I look at you traveling around the world way more than I could possibly do and doing things that I might not be able to do.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And like, I'm, I'm spending that time with my son. To me, that's a worthwhile trade off. And then you'll get to that stage at some point where you'll be like, I can't wait.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I totally agree with that. I think that that is really it. And then if you drill down a little bit further into that, one other thing that's worth adding is that we're living through the era of mass customization. We have been for some time, especially if you live in America. What I mean by that is if you go to a drinks machine or a vending machine in the US, right, you can have
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, you know that quote, I'll butcher it, but what does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul or something like that? And the way I look at success is what does it profit you to have millions in the bank if the people around you are miserable or don't exist? The fulfillment you get from family is incomparable. Now-
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you're living in a bedsit and struggling to pay the bills, it puts so much strain on your life that it's very difficult to enjoy. And some people are saints and are able to actually enjoy that in difficult circumstances. People always go, well, money can't buy you happiness. It can make it a lot easier to be happy. That's for sure.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yes. And all money is is a tool. So if you use that tool to solve problems that get in the way of your happiness, it can make you happy.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yes. And so I think success, especially for a man, is a great thing to pursue. And one of the reasons is that if you want to be more successful, you're going to have to be better. You have to work on yourself. You have to get better as a human being. Hopefully. Hopefully. Not everybody does. But once you've got that success... And you are making good money and you're, you know, whatever.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
It's something Jordan said to me when we were on tour together. He said, the best place to store excess resources is in your reputation.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
What it means is once you're doing well, the best thing that you can possibly do with the extra resources that you have is to help other people, is to make opportunities for other people, is to be somebody that other people benefit from knowing, is to be good to your family too in some respect. So the resources that you have, whether it's money or connections or whatever,
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
First of all, you've got eight choices. You can have Fanta. And then you can have each one of them in like eight different flavors. You can have lemon Fanta, orange Fanta, raspberry Fanta, all of that, right? So not only do we control most of the things around us, we get to choose exactly how we want it. At your fingertips, you have...
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
are really best deployed into other people around you because that's how you're going to have the best possible life. And I think that's fundamentally true. It gives me way more joy to buy my wife something than to spend that money on myself. And the same for, you know, seeing my son's eyes light up when something happens that we now can afford that we couldn't before.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I'm not recovering. I love work. I will always love work.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Yes. And I remember I had a very interesting conversation with Bill Ackman. It was a private one, but I don't imagine he would mind. He probably has talked about this elsewhere in public. Him and I were just having lunch. And his wife is amazing in her own right, Neri Arkin.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
She's incredible. Lovely human being. Just wonderful. They both are great people, actually. But Bill was saying to me, Bill is one of the most successful investors in the history of capitalism. And he showed me a graph where there was like a massive dip in the company valuation and then it just goes massively back up. And he went right at the bottom and he said, this is when we got together.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And he said, this is not an accident. He said, when your personal life is good, you inevitably succeed in everything else because it's the foundation from which you operate. And so that happiness and joy that he has from being married to a woman he is clearly just passionately in love with. who's great for him, he says that that is a big part of his business success.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And I have no doubt that that's true. When the foundation of everything that you're doing is strong, it's so much easier to do everything else. I mean, I'm hardly an expert on bodybuilding, but... But I imagine if you've got a weak core and you do lots of really heavy lifting, it's probably not that good for you, right?
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And so to me, family and the relationships you have with the people around you are really that core that you build everything else on. That's very interesting.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
My sub stack, constantinkissen.com and Trigonometry, the YouTube channel and podcast.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I don't know, 100,000 pairs of different shoes that you could buy. Same with t-shirts. So everything that we now consume, we have a level of choice that's completely unprecedented, which gives us an illusion of really high levels of control over everything. It's not just that we've really kind of got on top of infant mortality and all of these other things. Not only that, you can design your baby.
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#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Then that'll get- Everyone's copying that now, have you noticed?
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Oh, I love it. I love it. This is one of the things that people get very upset in our space about like stealing ideas. And I'm like, they're not stealing. They are take the proof of concepting what I've done. Precisely correct. That's great. I want more great people to be doing exactly the thing that, and this is, I was not always like this. This is one of the things I've learned.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And actually the person I've learned that from- The person I've learned that from is Rogan, undoubtedly. Because he's like, you should have a podcast. You should have a podcast. Everyone gets a podcast. Whereas most people mentality when they're ahead of everybody else is like, yeah. No, stay out. Shut it down. And Joe's like, there's enough in this world. More for everybody.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
There's more for everybody. And that lets grow the pie instead of obsess about how we divide the pie thing.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Well, I appreciate you as well, man. And you've had amazing success this year. So congratulations. You're going to cut this out like last time. Last time I said, well done, congratulations, and you cut it out of the episode. Don't do it again. Okay. Dean, did you listen to that? Stop it. All right. Appreciate you, man. Until next time. Thanks, brother. Appreciate it.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
You can have your baby exactly the way you want or you will be able to very soon. So in many ways, we are masters of our environment. So why can't we deal with this or with this or with that? And look, it's a noble and worthy thought. It just can't be taken to extremes when the reality is telling you this isn't working.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
who were getting arrested like george carlin for routine like the seven words you can't say on tv or whatever whatever it was so um that flipped without me realizing that it happened it was a left-wing thing or maybe a universal thing um and then it became a right-wing thing then Thinking your country's not all bad became right wing. And we can go down the list of all of those things.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And also, I think part of the other reason is, as I say, I think social media, I don't know if we've talked about this before. I think we haven't. Social media fundamentally changed the way politics is conducted in a profound way that I don't think anyone's aware of, especially if they're on the younger side of things.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I remember a few months ago, maybe a year ago, I was bored in the evening sitting around and I was on YouTube and this debate popped up between two people most of your audience have never heard of. William Hague, who was the leader of the Conservative Party in the UK at the time, or the deputy leader perhaps, and John Prescott, who was the deputy leader of the Labour Party at the time.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And John Prescott was this blue collar working class guy, couldn't put a proper sentence together to save his life and whatever. And William Hague, who actually is also working class, but he went to like a, I think he went to a grammar school. So he had this very posh, well-spoken accent. And it was the ultimate clash. But what happened was because There was no social media.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
They were not pandering to that. They were not trying to pander to their audience. Yeah. They were in the room together. And the way that that whole like standoff, that debate was conducted is William Hague would make fun of John Prescott for not being able to talk basically. Yeah. The late John Prescott, I should say.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
But John Prescott, to his great credit, he didn't feel like, oh, I'm going to get offended here and then I can get 10,000 retweets and talk about working class people and the snobbery. He was like, well, on this side of the house, we may get the words wrong, but we get the judgment right.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
In other words, it was a fight conducted on a kind of gentlemanly understanding that there are certain things that we don't do. Like a boxing match, you don't punch the other guy in the balls. And politics to a larger extent until first the 24-hour news cycle and then the social media environment changed. It was really conducted in a somewhat different way.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
I'm not saying it was not nasty occasionally or there wasn't that going on, but the incentive structure was different and incentives are everything. The incentive structure now is to do whatever it is that gets you the most attention. That is not necessarily the thing that gets the most constructive attention. Outcomes. Outcomes at all. And that's one of the fascinating things.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
If you meet a lot of politicians, as I now do, you see them in an environment outside of the House of Commons or outside of Congress or whatever. They're not nearly as antagonistic towards each other as they pretend online.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
Look at how I own the libs or the right or whatever. You can insert your own thing there.
Modern Wisdom
#886 - Konstantin Kisin - A Plan To Save The Western World
And look how much of a victim I am, which is increasingly a thing that's adopted across the political spectrum.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
So what would you say to those people who are saying that the reason Trump is being quite friendly to Putin and speaks about him in quite glowing terms in some instances is because he is worried that if he alienates Russia to such an extent and they side with China, that is going to cause major problems for the globe.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Well, we're talking about bad men who run countries, and I've been speaking to a lot of Australians, particularly high-ranking Australians in government and so on and so forth, and they're very concerned with China and its covetous eyes towards Taiwan. How... I mean, let's be blunt here. Do you think that's going to happen, the invasion of Taiwan, and how long do you think it's going to take?
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Because the one thing that I don't think people understand is China's tentacles extend to South America, and particularly Venezuela. Correct. My family in Venezuela tell me about Chinese investment. And Africa. Yeah. But it's more pertinent for America, the fact that Venezuela is only a couple of hours away from Miami. And you've got Hezbollah training on the island of Margarita. You've got Iran.
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
This is a very serious problem. Quite literally, you have enemies stationed in the Caribbean.
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Notes. Yeah. It's going to be a very small percentage. Tiny amount of people. I was being facetious, but it's actually true.
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
It's interesting because on the one hand, Trump is saying that he doesn't want to have this neocon attitude where he puts troops on the ground and he influences regime change. But let's be brutally honest, Seb. Iran.
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Unless you've sought Iran, whatever that means, that is the source of the poison which causes much of the disruption in the Middle East.
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
So what does that actually mean? Are you going to ratchet up the sanctions?
TRIGGERnometry
Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
Because that is not only the only challenge. Obviously, you also have the situation in Gaza. The ceasefire has just been broken. This is going to take a long time to sort out.
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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Live from the White House with Dr Sebastian Gorka
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TRIGGERnometry
Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
And what would you say, Liam, to those people who go, look, what COVID showed us is that we can't rely on China. China will act within its own interests. We're too reliant on the Chinese economy. We need to prioritize American-made goods. We need to prioritize infrastructure in America.
TRIGGERnometry
Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
We need to prioritize America first, because if we look at the way things are going, it's going to become more and more antagonistic between these two countries. And as a result of that, we need to prioritize America. Well, if we spool back, you know,
TRIGGERnometry
Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Yeah, and so, just to finish that thought, so... Really, it's Trump's priority is Russia within Russia-Ukraine and those negotiations. If we look at it with cold, hard eyes,
TRIGGERnometry
Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Thanks to today's sponsor, Venice. Have you ever wondered what chat GPT and Claude are doing with your conversations? We already know that Alexa listens in and suggests products based on what we say. And Meta retargets us based on everything we click on.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Could we be better off in practice if major continental regions had each maintained internal self-sufficiency and traded mainly within themselves?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
Would getting people of different lines of work change things? And if so, how do we get these to the top of the food chain?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
What do you mean by military conflagration?
TRIGGERnometry
Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
So you think that by Trump's posturing and talking and talking about raising tariffs, even... He has raised tariffs on China and China have reciprocated. They're real. They're on now. But the possibility of him raising them even more would actually trigger them. And how likely do you think that is, Nick?
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
And how much of you do you think this is because of his experiences dealing with the Chinese during COVID with the fact that they were, to put it mildly, opaque when it came to the creation of the virus, how it was spread, et cetera, et cetera. And him thinking to himself, right, well, this is payback.
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Will Trump's Strategy Work? - Liam Halligan
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
The film was powerful. I thought it made some really important points. I am almost certain it's going to cause a moral panic.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And I feel like when it comes to the idea of toxic masculinity, I use inverted commas, that often happens. Do you have any thoughts on that aspect of it?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Well, this is what I can ask you, because your area of expertise is evolutionary psychology. I imagine there are very strong evolutionary reasons why a male in a society would not want to be perceived as someone who's sexually unsuccessful.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
William, one thing I think would be interesting for you to break down is what are the critical factors that are likely to mean that someone is going to be persuaded by these sort of ideologies? I imagine in this particular film, there's a father and seemingly like a pretty good father present. He might not be there as much as he thinks he should be or whatever, but
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
But I imagine single-parent household is going to be a strong contributor. What are some of the markers that people watching can go, well, actually, these are the things that I probably should address with my boy?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And I suppose the obvious question, I don't know whether there is any research on this, is I think this movie has resonated as much, this series has resonated as much as it has because it speaks to two fundamental fears that parents have. One of them is that the online world is something they don't really understand very well. You see that in the movie.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And they don't know what's happening to their children online. Thank you. Thank you.
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Well, what the film shows, I think, that school looked to me as someone who, unlike you two, has never worked in a school. When I looked at it from the outside, I was like, this is a very badly run prison. That's what it looks like, right? And, you know, it's interesting. You say the male teachers were aggressive. I didn't read it that way. What I saw is...
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
The inmates are running the asylum, and people who are supposed to be in charge are doing their best to cope with that fact. They're not actually in charge. So I don't understand how much learning is going to be happening in that environment. And I'll be honest with you, as a parent, the one thing it really made me think about is, do I even want to put my kid in a school?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
So I think we've got, you know, you'll be both of you will be much better able to talk about this. And Francis got a whole book about teaching coming out. But one of the things that seems to me is that there are just there is a complete lack of discipline and respect towards the adults in that environment.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
That will be terrifying, I think, to a lot of people.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Yeah. But just for people who haven't seen the film, I mean, in that school, you've got pupils assaulting each other left, right and centre, telling the teachers to fuck off. I mean, we could go down the list, but it's basic. It is not a place in which the adults are in charge.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Well, I was going to slightly disagree with you. Maybe it's not disagreement. Maybe we're just talking about different things. Would you not be in favor of banning phones in schools?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
There's a reason we don't all have our phones here. Yeah, exactly. Because we're concentrating on the conversation we're having.
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
We should say as well, maybe a slight spoiler alert, which is the show is about a boy who, in a bout of rage, triggered by bullying in relation with a girl, stabs her to death, and there's an ensuing thing. And it is very powerful. It is very powerfully made. And I thought that there were lots of things about it that were well presented and really important and interesting.
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
But isn't the counterargument to that exactly what you just said, which is to be fully prepared for the modern world, you do have to be familiar with all these tools and these technologies. I mean, we've had people working for us who've come to us at the age of 18, and they know more about YouTube than we do.
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
And do you worry that, I have to be honest with you, I thought the film was powerful. I thought it made some really important points. I am almost certain it's going to cause a moral panic in which there are going to be all sorts of overreactions. An example, you know, Franz and I were talking about this after watching it. You know those harnesses that people have two-year-olds on in Britain?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
That happened after, I think, the Jamie Bulger killing. And Jamie Bulger wasn't killed, forgive me, because she wasn't on a dog lead. Do you know what I mean? And the way the parents do that, like, my wife looks at that in horror, right? So do you worry that there's going to be another... The reason I ask this is, like, when I was looking at some of the stuff that this film portrays,
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
I was thinking, do you know what? When I was a teenager and I was going on like gaming forums or playing video games, the sort of shit that I would have said and people were saying. Yeah. If you put that in the cold light of day in an interview room in a police station, I mean, there's probably dozens of hate crimes being committed in that space, right?
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Because young boys especially talk a lot of shit, try and get a reaction, say all kinds of crazy nonsense. And they have done, I imagine, since the dawn of time.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
So you mentioned that I saw a big part of the conversation in relation to this being about the race of the people involved. And, you know, I only slightly jokingly went, well, look, at least it's an opportunity for a young white male actor to get a job. Right. But seriously, give us the statistics. Why is that, you know, a concern and why is that an issue?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
So what would you like to see with your knowledge of this area? What do you think... the government and also parents could be doing to really try and tackle some of the issues raised in the film without overreacting?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
There are a lot of problems with IVF. It's not as reliable as people like to pretend. And I wonder, you know, the point you're making with the choice between a career and children, I don't know if that circle is ever going to get, a square is ever going to get circled or whatever the expression is.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
William, thank you so much for coming on. Head on over to Substack where he's going to answer your questions.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
But come back to the racial thing, because there's a lot of statistical research on this. So break that down for us.
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InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
William, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's great to have you on. You are a go-to guy on all things to do within sales, manosphere, etc. We had a great first conversation with you three years ago. And now we've got this series on Netflix, which is on course to be the most watched thing on there, Adolescence. You messaged us saying there's a lot to talk about. What did you make of it?
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Coming back to adolescence, one of the other things that I think it explores is this idea of toxic masculinity, which is the kind of unconstructive...
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
manifestation of male anger i think really that's kind of what they're getting and i saw there was a very clear line through from the way that the boy behaves particularly when he's being interrogated by the psychologist or you know not interrogated having the chat and the way the father behaves
TRIGGERnometry
InCel Expert Breaks Down Netflix's Adolescence
Which I thought was a very interesting thing because I didn't see the connection actually in the sense that the father is angry at stuff that a lot of people might be normally angry about. Whereas the boy clearly has a very... corrupted version of that, where he feels entitled to dominate other people, to manipulate them with language and also physicality, etc. But the connection is often made.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
So this is realist sphere of influence politics.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
We divide the world. Look, we're big men. We control this part. You control that part. Let's divide what's in the middle.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Okay. So one of the things, this got a lot of traction in the media. There was a conversation between the American presenter and podcaster Tucker Carlson and Steve Vitkoff, who is the U.S. special envoy, who is in charge of negotiating a peace deal with Ukraine and also in Israel and Hamas. And they talked about those two issues, but we'll focus on the Ukraine side of things.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
He said a lot of things in that interview that are just factually incorrect. He said that the five areas that Russia controls, which it doesn't control fully, by the way, were given to Ukraine by Khrushchev, who was a Ukrainian. That's not true. They weren't given to Ukraine. Only Crimea was. Khrushchev was not Ukrainian.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
I don't want to get too far into the details of that. I think what I'm saying is you as an expert and me as a layman would both agree that there were lots and lots and lots of things that he said. Those are just two easy examples which completely misrepresent the factual reality. What they do represent is the Kremlin position. Right. So why is the U.S.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
special envoy saying things that have no connection to the truth but have every connection to Kremlin propaganda? Why is that happening, Andrey?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And especially your argument is because actually, why not send someone like that in to negotiate? Because ultimately what you care about is just get this wrapped up. It doesn't really matter how this ends. We need to deal with this quickly because we've got China to deal with.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Well, let's do that. Let's do that. And look, from our perspective, we don't have a line. I guess my to the extent that I understand Ukraine and Russia, you know, growing up in Russia, living in Ukraine for some time, having family, having relatives, speaking to people in both countries about what's going on from the inside, speaking to people who are involved in various things.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
at various levels in government. I'm just telling people in the West what I know and what I'm hearing. That's all I'm doing. And if I was hearing something else, I'd be saying something else. But I agree with you. One of the fascinating things, I'm not sure if you experienced this because we're both Russian speakers and I imagine we both consume Russian speaking media.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
is watching something become a talking point in Russian media, and then two weeks later, or three weeks later, or a month later, it appears in English-speaking media as this new thing. Have you seen that pipeline happen yourself?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Well, this is why I was going to flesh out Francis' question a little bit. I think we should all accept, whether we like it or not, that elections have consequences. The president of the United States is President Trump. That's not going to change. The vice president is J.D. Vance. That's not going to change. I imagine none of the other people around are going to change.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
So this policy of America will continue. The only question, therefore, remains is actually, based on what you're saying, what does Europe do about this?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
But European countries have nuclear weapons as a deterrent.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
I agree. I made this point recently, and I think it's actually an incredibly obvious point that no one... Other than you and me, I've not heard anyone talk about this, even though it's so obvious. But... Nonetheless, you're saying if the Americans let Ukraine be subjugated, the Ukrainians will be added to the Russian army and then that army can be used against Europe.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And what I'm saying is European countries have nuclear weapons they can use to deter that. That's the comfort that a lot of Europeans will take. And they will say, well, actually, we don't need to do anything. We've got nuclear weapons. Britain and France will be fine.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
It's a good point, well taken. But I'm saying something else, which is your claim is that if Ukraine is forced to sign a ceasefire that leads to subjugation, Europe will then be attacked. And what I'm saying is Europeans won't be attacked, or at least people would argue Europeans won't be attacked, because Europe has the nuclear deterrent.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Well, Andrey, it's very serious things you're saying. I think people will be scared but also confused and it's very early days in the Trump administration. I will say very sincerely that I hope you're wrong about everything you're saying. But sadly, I'm afraid we're going to just have to wait and see.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Andrei, that's us. Thank you for coming on the show and giving us your perspective.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
But what's the other thing? Before Andrea answers the final question at the end of the interview, make sure you click the link in the description. Go to our Substack where you'll be able to see this. Do you think Putin would be more or less likely to use nuclear weapons as he gets older? Was there a time early in Putin's presidency when he was sincerely open to closer ties with the West?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
What role, if any, does geography play in Russian politics?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
What do you think is the likelihood of China invading Taiwan or trying to take it in some way? Guys, let us take a minute to recommend another podcast.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
This is a described... Francis, it's okay. The Jordan Harbinger Show is a perfect complement to trigonometry. Really? Absolutely. Just like Trigonometry, Jordan hosts weekly mind-broadening conversations with some of the most fascinating people in the world. But a key difference that I'm a big fan of is that Jordan is focused on pulling actionable, growth-oriented advice from his guests.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Sounds just like me, except, you know, I'm more SAS. You can't go wrong with adding The Jordan Harbinger Show to your podcast rotation. Search for The Jordan Harbinger Show, that's H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And that's quite a claim. Can you give us some specifics? Like, personally, I've never heard him say he wants to destroy Western civilization. What are you talking about specifically?
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
Andrei Laronov, welcome back to the show. We had you on exactly three years ago to talk about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, what Vladimir Putin was doing. Our interest was you were someone who worked with Vladimir Putin closely for six years, and we talked about it then.
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Trump's Deal Will be the End of Ukraine - Andrei Illarionov
And you messaged us recently saying that there are a lot of things being said in the English-speaking world that are not true and that need to be discussed, something we agree with you on, by the way. So... What are you talking about? What's going on? What do you think needs to be talked about in a different way?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Mike, welcome to Trigonometry. Thanks for having me. It's good to have you on. We are sitting here on the day that allegedly the JFK files are going to be released. Do we know what's in them?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, the reason people say that is it's kind of the obvious thing. Like if you get a pedophile to bring other people to his pedophile island, that's the perfect place for blackmail material to be generated, isn't it?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
So what's the real story of Jeffrey Epstein?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, one of the guests we've had on the show before is Michael Francis, who's a former New York mobster, basically. And he told us, I think it was in the Substack section, the paywall section, that the mafia were involved somehow.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, you made the point, and I think it's a really valid point, which is that we might tolerate it. You know, if you're an American citizen, you might tolerate it when it's against the Taliban or whoever. But the JFK and the Epstein things as just two examples, those are things that involve U.S. citizens. You've got an American president being assassinated.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
And you've got this guy who was, you know, up to God knows what. And the question with Epstein as well as interestingly is what do we Everyone thinks Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself Do we know enough to actually say that categorically?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, Mike, it's been great having you on. Before we head to Substack, where our fans get to ask you their questions, the one we always end with is what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Are you expecting that to be part of this conversation?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
If you're in charge, what is the first best bang for your buck thing that you would go after? He's thinking about Doge in this case.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
All right, head on over to Substack where we ask Mike your questions. What countries around the world seem to have the purest form of government or at least minimal influence from the blob? It's what we call the deep state in the UK. Or similar style of corruption. Do any exist? Do any countries exist that don't have this?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Well, you mentioned Epstein, and that's something that... I really want to talk with you about because I haven't looked into it deeply at all. I don't really know much about it.
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
The Joe Public perception of this, I would say, is there was some rich guy who hobnobbed with all these famous people, some of them powerful people, and he was into young girls and some of these people were into young girls. So he brought them to his island and they all had a good time, basically, right? So what's the real story of Jeffrey Epstein?
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JFK Files, Epstein and the Deep State - Mike Benz
Who was he, first of all? Just tell us his, like, story.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe. I wouldn't call it antagonism, but certainly... Why not? It is antagonism. One of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But at the same time, if you've made an actual mistake, the best way to make that go away is to hold your hands up and go, that was a mistake, we're investigating, we'll find out what happened, and the right processes will be put in place so this doesn't happen anymore. Right. That's how you deal with it.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And at some point you might have to admit culpability and some people might have to accept the consequences of that. But that is the way you maintain credibility. Anyway, it feels to me like we're in an interesting moment. But in terms of the stuff that you and I have picked up kind of on the ground here in America, I think one other thing that is really important to say is that.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
The wave of optimism, positivity that happened in America after the last election, which we were here for, and we did one of these conversations then, doesn't cover up the fact that a lot of ordinary Americans, left, right, center, up, down, a lot of people are really hurting. We heard this from guest after guest and ordinary person after ordinary person that we spoke to.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
A hell of a lot of people are in a position where they're financially very precarious. They're living hand to mouth. They don't have savings. Costs of things are going up. And they're looking for solutions to those things. And I think a lot of people hope that this re-industrializing America agenda, bringing jobs to America is going to work. But at this moment in time,
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
a lot of people are in a very difficult situation.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Francis, we have been in the US for two weeks. Now we're recorded about 16 episodes and 14 days. Intense. And we've learned a lot.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I whether whatever my personal view on it, forget about President Trump. It doesn't matter which side of the political debate you're on. I think that's by far and away the biggest issue. And I really hope that the current administration succeeds in making more giving more Americans access to the American dream, because.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
You know, I thought Charlemagne, who we had on the show, made this point very well. And Andrew Schultz talked about this as well when we interviewed him, which is the reason that you're seeing support for like that Luigi guy who killed a health insurance company executive and other movements of that kind is that a hell of a lot of people
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
don't have the hope that their American dream is supposed to provide to them. And this reflects not only in the price of food and groceries and other things, but it's also about your ability to buy somewhere to live. It applies to your ability to have kids and provide a life for them. And that is a big, big, big issue.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I really hope that what the Trump administration is doing is going to be successful in that. We haven't talked about Doge yet. And we haven't talked about the immigration situation and the deportation thing, because I think on both of those things, what you're likely to find is that the solution is right and necessary. But when you move this quickly, mistakes are going to get made.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Things that shouldn't really be cut are going to get cut. People who shouldn't be deported are going to get deported. And there does seem to be some of that going on.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Look, I think I'm... You and I joke about this all the time. You are more high empathy than I am. I'm a lot lower empathy. And because of that, I will say that I think this is true in Britain. I think it's true in America. After at least a decade of... open borders, deporting criminals absolutely needs to happen. I have no reservation about that.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Well, I think one of the things that happened with the election of President Trump is that a lot of people projected their own concerns and their own things onto him. And of course, he, like any good politician, like any effective politician, he would have encouraged that. So the people who were concerned about runaway wokeness thought that, you know, that's what he's going to deal with.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
I have no empathy for people who come here legally and murder people, rape people, commit crimes. They should be deported. I don't particularly care if they end up in a maximum security prison in El Salvador. Legally, there may be issues with that, and that should go through the proper process. Yeah.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But my concern is that in attempting to deal with those issues, it's very, very important that there is due process.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And we have seen one or two instances, and it's hard to know what you believe based on what's going on and what's being reported, of people who are not fitting of that description being deported to a country they've never even been to and being stuck in a prison with the worst criminals in the world. And likewise with those... Look... I'm on record as saying this, and I will say it again.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Reducing the size of government is a massive, massive priority for every Western country. It needs to be done. And I'm not just talking about eliminating waste and fraud, which needs to be done. And I hope to God that happens, and it happens quickly.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I think part of the reason they're doing it quickly is the only way to do it, because otherwise the machine and the blob is going to swallow you up. But in that process, you're also potentially going to cause issues. And so all of these things have to be done quickly and carefully, and that's very, very difficult to do.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
So I am excited for Doge, and I hope we get one in the UK and in other countries. But again, you just worry a little bit that as that happens, some babies get thrown out with the bathwater. Gold just exploded past $2,800 an ounce, shattering all records. This isn't just another headline.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
It's part of what experts call the Great Wealth Shift, the largest transfer of money from the middle class to the elites in history. Here's what's really happening. While inflation devours your savings, the wealthy are converting their dollars into gold. They know that every time Washington prints more money, your retirement loses value. But their gold grows stronger.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
President Trump warned about this. He called it when he said, the dollar is going to hell. And now JP Morgan has quietly purchased nearly a thousand tons of gold and central banks are buying at the fastest pace in 55 years. They're preparing for something big. But here's the good news. You still have time to protect yourself if you act now.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Augusta is offering Trigonometry fans a free gold investment guide, jam-packed with wealth-building secrets America's billionaires hope you never see. To get yours, text TRIGGER to 35052 now. That's TRIGGER to 35052. Listen, there's no denying it, the shift is accelerating. The question is, will you be ready? Text TRIGGER to 35052 now.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And he has. The people who are concerned about the size of government thought that that's what he would deal with, and that's what he's doing. The people who were concerned about illegal immigration, which is a lot of people, thought that that's what he'd deal with, and he is dealing with it. But also, he's also doing quite a lot of things that he never talked about on the campaign trail.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
We are here. And what the left did is they destroyed language and they destroyed faith in the mainstream media. So now... Words like Nazi don't mean anything anymore. And reporting in publications like Time Magazine, which is where that story was originated, or Forbes, et cetera, we don't really know what to believe.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But I do also think, I think if you're objective about this, if you're not partisan, you have to recognize that when you're rounding up hundreds and hundreds of people, it is not unlikely that one or two people are going to get caught up in it who are not supposed to be there, right? Mm-hmm.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And so what you'd hope is that there is a process for making sure that the people to whom this happens have access to due process, they can appeal, et cetera, which, you know, I hope that happens. The problem is, you know, as we talked about with the Signal story, when a government does things that it shouldn't do, the incentive structure is not likely to encourage them to admit that and correct.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
The incentive structure is to pretend it didn't happen, to cover it up, et cetera. So I just, look, I really hope that in dealing with illegal immigration, the US administration, and also if we ever get to that point in our country. I hope it gets dealt with quickly.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
I don't massively care about, you know, we joke all the time about there was a guy who couldn't be deported from the UK because his kid likes chicken nuggets that are all of this stuff. I don't give a shit about any of that. If you come to a country illegally and commit crime, I don't massively care about making sure you're okay in every way. If you get deported and you end up in prison, good.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But we can't throw away the baby with the bathwater. And I think one of the reasons America is so great is that there is a legal system that allows people recourse to appeal and so on. And I think that's really important.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
All of this stuff about Canada and Greenland and the Panama Canal, etc. I don't remember that being an issue that was discussed. Another interesting thing that's happening is we had a lot of conversations with people behind the scenes, not even on camera particularly, about... the rise in the impact of the religious aspect of the right.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Now, look, here's where I'll say something that I think is a very complicated issue. My understanding, I don't know the law very well. I have read a few things about it, and my understanding is it's very complicated. However, you and I, I think, are always going to err on the side of people being allowed to speak their mind and not be punished for it.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And so from that perspective, I think deporting people who express their lawful opinion in public, even if it's at a protest, I think is totally wrong. On the other hand, and this is not about the specific incident, so just to be clear, I think people who say things that people don't like shouldn't be deported from the country.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Just as a matter of principle, I'm not talking about these specific cases because I don't know the details exactly. The claim is they were pro-Hamas or whatever. I don't know if that's true. But if they are pro-Hamas, I think that needs to be established in court as opposed to someone just saying it and then these people being removed. On the other hand... It's not even on the other hand.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
That is said, and I don't take back any of that. But you and I are visitors to the United States. Would you go to a protest to protest about stuff in this country as a visitor? No. And neither would I. And I think the reason for that is there's a fundamental recognition that there's a difference between being a citizen of a country and being a visitor there or having a visa to come there.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And we've got a conversation that will come out in a while with Barry Strauss, who's one of our favorite historians, talking about the collapse of the Roman Empire and how he sees parallels in the modern world. And one of the things he mentioned is once you erode the concept of citizenship,
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
and the privileges and the duties that come with that that's when you're going down a very dangerous path and i think that's true and my sense is that again i say i think the legal system in america in relation to this issue is quite complicated and so i'm not commenting on that i'm just saying as a matter of principle i think it's perfectly fine
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
for a distinction to be made between citizens and non-citizens. And I think actually that distinction needs to be made stronger and wider. And I think we need to say that in order for us to have a cohesive society, you gain lots of rights and duties when you become a citizen of the country. And until you are, you may not be subject to all the exact same rules.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I say that as someone who was for a very long time in that position in Britain as a first-generation immigrant and someone who visits the United States. I don't feel entitled to act like a dick in America because this isn't my country.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And when we talk about American politics and policy and things that happen here, I think we both always try to do it from a place of understanding that this isn't our country and we have a respect for it. And there's certain things we don't understand about it.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I think if setting aside the legalistic arguments and setting aside the fact that we already said people who just expressed their opinion in our view, should not be removed from a country.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, makes the point that if you told us when you made your visa applications, and you and I both know that the process for getting an American visa is quite involved, and rightly so, you know, why shouldn't you be able to just come here?
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
That was your experience with the embassy, but not mine. And my point is this. I think that if you what he's saying is if you told us that this is what you would do on your visa application, we never would have let you into the country. And I think that distinction is also important. I think we have to, as a culture in Britain, certainly, and I would argue in America as well as an outsider,
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And we hosted some conversations on camera in which that was also discussed. But I think the main question that a lot of people don't know the answer to is there's quite a lot of stuff that the Trump administration is doing that most people would agree with. like their domestic policies and a lot of things, like dealing with mass illegal immigration, closing the border.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
make the distinction very clear between people who are here as visitors and people who have taken on the opportunity and also the burden of citizenship. And when you take on the duties and burdens of citizenship, that comes with an expanded set of rights.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
I don't think it is in the interest of our country or in the interest of America to welcome lots of people from other countries so that they can then start basically slagging off this country. I don't really see how that is... appropriate. And so what I'm saying is I think we really have to dial in on this idea that Thank you.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Tariffs are something that people kind of thought that he would do, maybe not to the same extent. But I think the big question is, what is his overall posture towards the world. Why is he talking so much about these territories near the United States and what he wants to do about that?
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And also how he's going to deal with Ukraine, how he's going to deal with Israel, how he's going to deal with Iran. And this is the real thing that I don't think anyone expected to be the way it has been. How is he going to deal with Europe? Because we have seen quite a lot of things coming out of the Trump administration. with J.D.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah, I'm glad that efforts are being made to secure peace in Ukraine. That's important and necessary. I'm very, very concerned that the way that's going to get done is not the way that it should be.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Vance, those leaked signal messages, etc., where you go, oh, these people, they really, really, really do not like Europe.
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And the worst thing is... We don't know which one of those is right. It seems to me that there isn't any logical reason why the invasion wouldn't be repeated and then the entire world wouldn't find itself right here again.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
The one thing for balance that I think we can be very positive about, or at least it seems like at the moment, is what's happening in the Middle East. Because what you see, the current White House understands very well that the conflicts, not just in Israel and Gaza, but elsewhere in the Middle East are about one thing, which is Islamists versus everybody else.
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And so what I see them doing is they're attempting to align the moderate Arab governments
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with israel against those forces because the the the arab rulers of those countries who are muslims they don't want anything to do with islamists because islamists are a direct threat to them because islamists don't believe in national states they want a caliphate they want to remove those people who lead those countries and replace them with one big caliphate um and of course we all know that that is being funded and encouraged by iran so
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Donald Trump was able to make quite a bit of progress in his first term, and it looks like they are very clear-headed about what's happening in the Middle East and are moving in the right direction. Gaza aside, you know, that's obviously a big mess, and, you know, we hope that that ends because it's terrible what's happening there.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But I think I'm much more hopeful about their plan for the Middle East.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I don't think it's just him, by the way. I think it's a broader thing within the Trump administration now. And it's understandable. And you and I, I think, would agree that when it comes to defense spending, for example, Europe has been absolutely taking the piss. Yeah. Absolutely taking the piss.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I think part of it is, like you say, the rhetoric. Part of it is also, and I think Charlemagne made this point and it made a lot of sense to me, which is people begin to care. Let's be honest, right? Let's be honest. Americans don't mind spending a bit of money bombing a country on the other side of the world. Right. They've never had an issue with that. Yeah.
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Americans like having a powerful military and they're prepared to use it.
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The problem is when ordinary people are hurting, that's when they suddenly start going, well, why are we sending money to this country? Why are we sending money to that country? And of course, they're not hurting because they sent a hundred billion dollars worth of weaponry to Ukraine. That sounds like a lot of money. And it is.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But that is a drop in the ocean when it comes to the United States budget, right? The reason they're hurting is decades of government mismanagement of the economy. And that's where, again, I'm very excited. I think the re-industrialization agenda is great. I really hope that happens in America, and I really hope that inspires us in the UK in particular, but elsewhere in the Western world,
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We have got to recognize that we do not live in the Francis Fukuyama wonderland. We have to be able to produce our own steel. We have to be able to produce our own energy. We have to be able to make things. And that's important not only for defense. It's important for our people to have meaningful jobs that allow them to make money, put food on the table, have a family.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
These things are very, very important. And reindustrializing our countries is a big part of that. And it's necessary.
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We've been living under the American nuclear umbrella, not investing in our own defense, not investing in our own services, running them down to completely... ridiculous levels, while at the same time increasing over time and spending more and more money on welfare. And I totally understand the American position. The American position is, look, we don't have a huge welfare state.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Well, the real world is about to wake Britain up because we're headed for bankruptcy. And this is not an exaggeration. Liam Halligan, who we just had on the show, he wrote about this on the Substack. We are heading to an IMF bailout. That's the direction we're going in. And no amount of raising taxes is going to help that, right? We've got to grow the economy.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
We've got to scrap net zero immediately. We have got to do everything possible to produce our own energy. I don't care how much carbon it produces. I'm sorry, I don't. We have to look after our people today and our children and our grandchildren who are going to be paying these debts off for the next 60 years, if we're lucky. So we've got to grow the economy.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
We've got to cut all of these luxury beliefs and... That is going to be a big shift. And it's not going to be easy. And it's not going to be painless. But our country needs to wake up. People in America have had that wake-up call. And to the extent that they're doing good things, I think we should be inspired by that.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And we should bring that to the UK and take the best of it and do everything we can. Because otherwise, we're just going to continue to decline. And I don't want that for our country.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Did he have a license for that opinion, mate?
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What's happening in Britain is just we're becoming the laughingstock of the world.
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So all of that shit needs to end. Obviously, we've got a Labour government who I'm sure are going to do everything in their power to sort that out. But even the Labour government, I mean, if you look at the economics of it, the Labour government is making massive cuts.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
They're not big enough for what we need, but they're still making cuts because everyone knows we're in a completely unsustainable situation. So that wake-up call... And if we don't... Look, and this is what's going to happen. This much I can tell you with some confidence. Either we heed that wake-up call now or things are going to get worse until there's a wake-up call we simply cannot ignore.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Yeah. That is the choice that Britain faces today. And that's where we are. Yeah. That is where we are. But look. All right. America's fucked. Britain's fucked. The world's fucked. Thanks for watching. Give us money. To give us money, head on over to Substack, where we're about to answer questions that you guys have sent in. The link is in the description.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
That's not the American way. So why should we be paying for yours?
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Frederick says, how did you find the White House? And what was the feeling walking into the building?
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
There's a couple of questions about whether we plan to move to America. Yeah.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Well, right, that's one of the arguments people here will make about Ukraine. It's like, you guys say you want to support Ukraine, but Europe... got more money, spent more money on Russian gas, rather, during the course of the war than it gave to the Ukrainians in support. So you were telling us we've got to pay for that while you guys de-industrialize, don't produce our own energy.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Like the UK is, I think, the Chinese owner of the UK's last steel-making facilities. It's just made the decision to shut them down. So Britain has four times the industrial energy prices of America. We're not able to make our own virgin steel, which is what you need for military use. Why would an ally like that be valuable to the United States? So I do understand that. I also think that...
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
there is a risk that that rhetoric becomes self-fulfilling and Europe and America do end up just kind of going in separate directions, which I think would be bad for both countries, actually, for Europe and for America.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
We're becoming the laughingstock of the world.
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Because J.D. Vance, and by the way, I agree with a lot of what he said in Munich. I agree with a lot of the stuff he said at the AI Summit, and I thought it was a really interesting speech that he gave for reasons we can get into. But if you look at what they're saying in those group chats in the Signal thing.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And we'll see how that plays out. Like I say, I think I see the American argument and I am deeply, deeply frustrated with the British government of the country that we are from and many, many European countries that have lived... Let's be honest, this is cloud cuckoo land. You cannot...
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
destroy your own industry, your own jobs for the sake of quote unquote saving the planet, which we're absolutely not doing. And we won't be able to do when China, India, and now the United States are completely just not pursuing those policies at all. Those are the three countries that produce the most CO2 in the world, if that's your concern.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Clearly, this notion that Britain can save the world by leading the way on those issues is ridiculous because no one's following.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
So when we suicide our country in order to reduce our contribution to global carbon emissions from 2% to 1% or even to 0%, when no one follows that, we are not helping anything and we're ruining our own economy, which means that we're not able to project our power, which means we're not a good ally to the United States. I think that will play out.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And my understanding of many of the Trump policies is that he's going out to an extreme in order to encourage Europeans to do more, which they're doing. And hopefully, you know, the argument we've heard about tariffs is something we haven't mentioned yet, is that the reason Donald Trump is doing this is he actually wants a zero tariff world, which it isn't.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And the way to achieve a zero tariff world is to make people see that when you put tariffs on American stuff, it's not good for America. It's also not good for you. So let's all go to zero. We're not there yet. That is still ongoing.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But I think the other thing, and this is important because we talked about this with Joe Rogan on his show. What we also saw from the Signal Group chat is the reaction to it from a lot of people in the new media and in the old media. where, look, obviously the people on the left are going to jump on that as an opportunity to try and criticize the administration. And so they should.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And so they should. But you also see that those of us who have called out the craziness of the woke period that has been ongoing for some time, we, I think, you and I and others, try to be honest and say, look, this was not a good thing. Like, if you add a journalist to a signal group in which... Plans for U.S. attacks on Yemen are being discussed. That's not a good thing.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But you also saw that a lot of people are just partisan and they try and pretend it away, claim that this journalist is a bad person. Maybe he is a bad person. Doesn't mean that...
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
adding him to his signal group is a good thing and i think one of the things that you're about to see is a big pivot that i think this space is going to split into those people and look i'll give you an example i've had run-ins with glenn greenwald online we've had him on our show i said some things about him that were not complimentary after you know in part of of our discussions whatever
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But he's been very principled on things like this, as have many other people. But there's also going to be a section of people who they never really cared about the truth. They never really cared about being balanced. They just care about their side. And to them, it's like red team, blue team.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
They're on team red, and they'll ignore everything that team red does that's bad and focus only on what team blue does. And I think that's going to be a big split in this space.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
But that guy is in, and I think, look, neither of us is American, so this is just an outside perspective, and it's up to Americans how they run their government and blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's 100% accurate. But from my perspective, I would say the same thing about the U.K.,
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
If you get people into power that you think are better than the people that are there now, you nonetheless want them to be accountable. You nonetheless want them to admit mistakes and correct mistakes. You nonetheless want them to... to have their feet held to the fire for things that they do that are fair.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
And I think the strategy that the White House employed in this issue was very strange because they admitted it was a mistake. They admitted it was real. Several people, Tulsi Gabbard included, said it was a mistake. I think Mike Walsh himself said it was a mistake. But they also, at the same time, tried to attack the journalist for... reporting being added to a signal group.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
Every journalist in history would have done that, right? Would have published that story and would have done it the way that he did. So it's just an attempt to pretend that a mistake wasn't made, even though you've admitted a mistake. It doesn't make any sense. And I think the fastest way to lose credibility with sensible people
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the overwhelming majority of this country, is to pretend that you didn't make a mistake when you did, when you obviously did, and not to admit it and not to apologize and not to say, we're going to investigate this and find out what's going on.
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We Went to America - This Is What We Saw
That's probably what they think. But the difference is that the problem with cancel culture was people being unfairly treated and misrepresented and lied about. And if someone accuses you of something that you haven't done, or if someone claims that you've said something that you haven't said, and you and I both had those experiences, of course you should never apologize in that situation.
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But the question is, can there be a sense in America that the American dream is alive, that you do not have to work three gig economy jobs to pay your rent, that you're going to be able to buy a house, that you're going to be able to afford to have children, that you're going to be able to raise a family, perhaps on a single income, something that most people only dream about nowadays.
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That's really what this whole economic conversation is about. And we will see over the next four years if Donald Trump is able to slightly even change the direction of travel towards those things that actually Americans of my generation and older used to take for granted as the promise of the country that they live in.
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Well, I'm glad you asked me about Elon Musk because the thing that I love most about the media having this massive meltdown about, oh no, these Americans are interfering in our political. These are the same media commentators who are constantly banging on about American politics and saying, Donald Trump needs to do this. You need to vote for this. Like all of this stuff is ridiculous.
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The reality is we download our culture, our politics, our music, almost everything from America. America has become what Britain used to be, which is the center of Western civilization.
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And my request and ask and begging of British people is, if we're going to download American culture and politics, let's at least take the good stuff instead of all this terrible woke shit that we downloaded from them, the DEI and all this other nonsense.
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and actually take the entrepreneurial spirit and all these other things that are really great about America, the optimism, the positivity, the willingness to have a go, to take a risk, as Scott was talking about. So I wish we took more of that. And it speaks to your question about are we a failing nation. Look, I think...
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It's a deliberately inflammatory question, which I don't want to kind of actually accept in that way. But what I think we should acknowledge is, are we trending up or are we trending down? And when you talk about over 10,000 millionaires have left, I hear that through a normal British person's ear.
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And I worry that there's quite a lot of British people who will hear that and say, oh, good, all of these rich parasites have left. Because that's our attitude in the UK to a very large extent. We see wealthy people not as what they are, which is for the most part, not everybody, but for the most part, people who've created a tremendous amount of value financially.
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for their fellow human beings, and as a result of that have been rewarded. We see them because we have this history of the landed gentry. And so to us, a millionaire is someone who has these ill-gotten gains that they don't deserve, right? That is not really the world we live in. When I talk to wealthy people in this country and pretty much everywhere else,
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For the most part, especially in the Western world, these are people who've created something that has fundamentally helped other human beings do something better, do something easier, buy products cheaper, whatever it is. That's who the successful people really are. And we just need an attitude shift. That's what we should be downloading from America.
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What we should be saying inside our heads is this person is successful because they've helped other people. Great. How do we get more of those people into our country? And I'm afraid I'm telling you something that you know better than anyone, Stephen. If you don't have entrepreneurs in your country creating businesses and creating jobs, the economy is going to stagnate for the rest of eternity.
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We have to get smart, talented, driven people into our country instead of chasing them out.
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It was almost like demonizing men for decades has consequences. I mean, this is what's been happening. Men are the root of all evil, the root of all evil, the root of all evil. Every advert is about, you know, the woman is strong and capable, the guy's pathetic. In every movie, the woman's kicking ass and the man is pathetic. This has been going on for decades.
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It's a cultural thing as well as an economic thing. And many of us have been saying that when you take meaning and opportunity away from men, if you create an education system that punishes boys for being boys, if you create a society in which traditional masculine virtues become vices... then you will create exactly the sort of thing that Scott is talking about.
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It's a terrible thing that's been done. Having said that, my message is always the same to young men who I hope are listening, which is the answer to your problems is never going to be, as Scott says, porn and this and that. The answer to your problems is going to take responsibility, go out and get a job or create a business and actually make your life better. No one's coming to save you.
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No one's coming to help you. There is no... the sort of programs that we have for women where we sort of go, well, you know, let's give them an opportunity here. None of that's happening for men. It's not going to happen because for evolutionary reasons, we just don't feel sorry for men the way that we do for women. That's a reality.
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I know it sucks, but the answer for men is going to be the answer that's always been the answer for men, which is for you to get off the sofa, to get off the couch and go out and actually do and create and build and find your own way through it.
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Even if you have to acknowledge that the society you live in has been conditioned for quite a long time to think that you're a piece of shit because you happen to have the genitalia that you do. Now, that I think is the harsh reality of it. And I think Scott is right to point this out as a problem. And I hope that we start to have...
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both in terms of economic policy, but in terms of also just the cultural conversations and the way we talk about these issues.
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We come back to something that human beings have known through the entire history of our species, which is men and women are both good and need to work together in order to thrive and succeed together, in order to have families, in order to have children, and in order for us to have healthy communities and healthy societies. You need healthy femininity and
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and you need healthy masculinity, and they need to come together and work together. That's what we're supposed to do. And these stupid gender wars and this idea that men as a group are this and women as a group are that, all of that just needs to end.
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That's exactly right. That's exactly right, Stephen.
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And I think if we take a step back and look at why DEI has become such a big part of the conversation, it's precisely because instead of addressing the reality of people's lives, which is some people are disadvantaged and some people are advantaged, actually what we've mainly done, and Scott alluded to at the very beginning of our discussion, is we've given a leg up to very...
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wealthy, ethnic minority people from successful families. And they now, their children now get into prestigious universities, which they probably would have done anyway, some of them, because they come from very advanced backgrounds. And the kids that are growing up in poverty, black and white, have no shot whatsoever.
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But the reason that it's become such a big issue around the Western world, actually, I don't think it's the nuances that we've delved into here, but actually something else, which is we have created... the most ethnically diverse societies in history.
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And what I mean by that is not that we've created societies in which there are large groups of people who are different from each other, but for the first time, probably in human history, we've created societies in which there is a lot of ethnic diversity and there is no overt discrimination against some groups of people in the sense of
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You know, the imperial societies in the past would have had one dominant ethnic group, which is, you know, the Russians in the Soviet Union or the Turks in the Ottoman Empire or the Brits in the British Empire, whatever. That was the ethnic group that was like the dominant one. And everybody else was a kind of second class citizen and everybody knew it. Right. We don't have that anymore.
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We have highly diverse societies where people of every single background exist. in which we have this idea that we're all supposed to be equal. When we have programs that explicitly discriminate against people, there were times when the discrimination was explicit against black people.
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Well, we've gone full circle now where the discrimination was going the other way in university admissions, in hiring, in corporate America, in government, in all sorts of things. In this country, the BBC has internships that aren't available to white people. etc.
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When you get to that point, as Scott said earlier on, everyone just goes, look, I know I'm not supposed to say this, but the reality is this is racism. This is a form of racism. And I thought we were trying to get away from the racism.
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So to the extent that the elimination of DEI is about creating a merit-based society in which people are given an opportunity because they're skilled and talented and they have the potential to actually achieve things, and create wealth. You know, we all know this. We all employ people, right? How many of us are thinking about the races of the people we hire?
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I don't think we think about that at all. What we're thinking about is I run a business. I need the very best person to very best possible person for this job at the price I'm willing to pay. I don't care if they are purple, green, blue, white, whatever. It doesn't matter. What matters is are we getting the best person for the job? And my concern about identity politics has always been
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that if we do not adopt that worldview, then what we will do is create a worldview in which we have different racial groups competing with each other on the basis of race. And that is a very, very dangerous mix for a multi-ethnic society like ours, which is why I've been begging people to let go of this stupid idea
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of identity politics and to say, first and foremost, we are all Brits or we are all Americans. We have this umbrella identity under which we all operate and our personal ethnicity or sex or whatever is secondary to that. And actually for the purposes of employment, for the purposes of college admission, et cetera, is irrelevant.
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Yes, if there is disadvantage, if we grew up in a single parent home with a low income, we may need some extra support there. If we had terrible schooling or our education was not good, we may need extra support. If there's certain things that make it easier for us because of the disadvantages we've had to fulfill our talent and potential, I'm all for that.
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But what we've created so far, and that's why I'm delighted it's being eliminated, is an anti-meritocratic system which says, we don't care what you bring to the workplace. We don't care whether you deserve this place or not. We don't care about the potential you have. Actually, we just needed an insert category tick box to fill this slot. And you filled it.
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It doesn't really matter that you're not doing your job very well because now we can say, you know, we're a diverse company. I don't care about that. And we shouldn't care about that as a society. And thank God that's now gone.
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I think it's incredibly unwise to make bold predictions about what's going to happen over the next six to seven months. I do think what America had at the election and what the election of Donald Trump represents is something that we in the UK don't have, which is choice.
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Net, yes. But I think what people hear when you say that is there's no problems with this system compared to the ones we had before. There are definitely disadvantages to a free platform like X now. And one of them is... inevitably, when you remove censorship, one of the things the censorship was doing was keeping all the deeply unpleasant people away from being able to shove things in your face.
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And that happens quite a lot on X. So I don't enjoy that aspect of it. But I've always said that would be the price that we would pay for freedom. Freedom always has a price, and that's what we're seeing. As for Zuckerberg, His miraculous transformation into a free speech warrior is just wonderful. And I'm delighted to welcome him.
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I'm sure it's entirely genuine and not anything to do with the election results we've just seen in any way whatsoever. And the fact that the culture shifted and those of us who were being censored by people like him for years actually winning the argument. Well, what it shows you is we've won the argument on free speech. when it comes to the big tech platforms. And it's going to be messy.
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They had a very clear choice between two very different perspectives on the world, between two very different approaches, between two very different candidates. And ultimately, criticisms of President Trump are necessary and legitimate. Of course, they are.
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And I always said it was going to be messy because inevitably when you create these large platforms that are algorithmically driven, where the truth and the moderate reasonable take is not what usually gets attention, you're going to see a lot of unpleasantness. I value the ability to hear and communicate truthful ideas and facts over my own subjective feelings.
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Oh, someone said a thing I don't like or someone was racist or someone was misogynistic. I don't enjoy the fact that that happens, but I would rather that happened and also we were not being censored from saying, you know, COVID probably came from a lab in China, which we were. You know, the... The Hunter Biden laptop story isn't Russian disinformation.
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Actually, it's an important piece of information that American voters need to hear when they're making their decision about the election. And all of these other things that were being suppressed and censored across social media for years.
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they're not anymore and i think that's a good thing and i think that's helpful and if you look at you know to bring it back to the uk for a moment stephen uh as you know on trigonometry we've tried to cover the grooming gangs uh scandal and is as an outrage what happened in this country over decades we've we've been covering that for years since about 2019 2020 to very little purchase
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And one of the reasons is it was just something that the media sort of covered and then moved on when it actually should have been something we talked about on a daily basis until serious action was taken. And we saw real, real change, real change in policing, real change in social work, real change in government, real change in the way that these racially aggravated hate crimes were treated.
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Well, none of that was really being talked about seriously until Elon kicked up a fuss amplified the voices of survivors, amplified the voices of campaigners on X, which he bought, and now the British government is forced to do whatever it can to actually address those issues to the extent that it will. A lot of people will say it still doesn't go far enough.
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Well, if it doesn't go far enough, we now have a platform from which we can continue to have that conversation until there is the sort of inquiry and the sort of outcomes that people want to actually deliver real change. So is that a positive? God, yes. God, yes. We needed that.
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But at the end of the day, I believe, having spent quite a lot of time in America around election time and also just generally and traveling around real America, not just in D.C. and L.A. and New York, The reason that he was elected was that the American people are not prepared to accept what Europeans have decided they're prepared to accept, which is managed decline.
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Those women who were raped on a mass scale needed their voices to be amplified by someone like Elon Musk on a platform like X, which is now free. to the point where Keir Starmer is forced into defensive action. I wish that was around 30 years ago, because a hell of a lot of young girls and women wouldn't have suffered the way they did if we had the opportunity to get that message out.
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So, God, yes, it's a net positive.
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I think there are several reasons. One of the reasons that it's happening now is actually most Americans were completely unaware of this issue until recently. I remember a year ago speaking at a private event in New York and somebody said to me, well, you know, what is the consequence of political correctness? Why are you so against it? Why are you so against censorship?
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And I talked about the grooming gangs and people were horrified. They hadn't even, and these are well-informed, educated people who are media savvy and whatever. So one of the reasons is I think to a lot of Americans, this issue is only coming to the fore now in front of their mind.
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The second issue, I think, is that Elon Musk understands what I said earlier, which is we have a global Western culture now. And so what happens in Britain matters just as much as what happens in America because we are symbiotic with each other now.
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When there's a restriction of speech in the UK, when we have laws about what people are and aren't allowed to say, that has an impact across the world. When you see the European Union trying to pass legislation about online censorship, that has an impact because if something...
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exists in the UK and in many European countries, it's only a matter of time before people in America are going to say, well, look, they've got this in Europe. Why don't we bring it over here? And vice versa. So what happens in America affects us in Europe and in the UK. And what happens in Europe and the UK affects America. So what Elon, I think, is trying to do
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is to say we care about our civilization. Elon doesn't really talk that much about the United States. He talks about our civilization as I do, because I believe that we are now one thing to a very significant extent.
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Now, from our civilizational point of view, is it a good thing that mass rape gangs in the UK are being insufficiently investigated and treated improperly by the police and the government? No, it's not. It's a very bad thing. So how do we address that? Well, we address that by putting pressure on the government of the day. Now, I don't see the grooming gangs as a party political issue.
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The Tories didn't really do anything about it properly either, although there were individual members of the cabinet that tried to do something like Suela Braverman. But he's putting pressure on the government of the day. You can see him going after Nigel Farage, of all people, and saying Nigel Farage is not the right leader for reform.
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So he's attempting to shape British politics in the direction that he feels is the right way. What does he want?
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Look, I don't know what Elon Musk wants. I don't know him personally. I haven't even yet had a chance to interview him, which I really look forward to doing because I think he's one of the great visionaries of our time. Whether you like him or not, I think that's undeniably true. But my sense is he's trying to talk about all the things that we've been discussing, freedom of expression,
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The American people do not want their country to become weaker. They do not want it to become poorer. They do not want to impoverish their fellow citizens through net zero. What they want is their country to be great, their country to be powerful, their country to be influential. The economic realities for most Americans are not really reflected in the figures that we are told.
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the end of identity politics and the pursuit of meritocracy, a pioneering, inspiring vision of the future, which is why he's talking about Mars and a vision for our civilization that goes beyond the narrow squabbling that we do here on Earth. and the understanding that human beings are meant... We left the cave.
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We're not supposed to stay in a place with the walls closing in on us and feel like we're in decline. We're not supposed to be a civilisation that has 1.5 children per woman and that is simply just leaving the planet Earth because we can't reproduce. We're supposed to look at the future with hope and optimism. We're supposed to say, I want things to be better.
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I want things to be better for my children. I want to have children. I want the vision of our society being one of positivity and optimism and a sense of a pioneering vision and inspiration. That's what I think he wants. And...
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i don't really see any of that in the current government in the uk and i think he's right to go after them and say you are destroying your country's economy you're destroying its culture you're destroying its sense of cohesiveness by allowing illegal immigration you are destroying that sense of optimism and vision and you're not saying to people let's build something better you're saying let's stay small let's play small let's not rise above our station and i think
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We need people like that, imperfect as they may be in all sorts of different ways, to drive our civilization forward, to say to us there is an inspiring vision to which we're all moving as opposed to just sitting there and waiting to die, which is what we've been doing for far too long.
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So when people talk about inflation, the reality of people's lives on the ground is that their cost of living has gone up very, very significantly over the last few years. And that's not always reflected directly in the overall inflation figure that we're shown because certain things are much more influential in people's lives than others.
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And so whether the decision to elect President Trump ends up being this positive thing for which there should be lots of optimism is a matter of the next four years? Are we going to see a presidency that really does everything it promises? And by the way, you know, if you look at the things that Donald Trump is promising,
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They thought that before the internet. I remember watching all the 9-11 truth of movies and all of that. But your point overall is right. I totally agree. And by the way, Elon agrees with you. When he bought X, he talked about the bot problem. He talked about the amplification of outrage.
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He hasn't done as much as I hoped he would have done so far, but I hope that they do address that because that isn't an Elon or an X problem. It's a technology problem of the modern world.
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The reality is that the more we live our lives online, the more you're going to have the problem of the ability of foreign governments, of individual people to create fake accounts, bot farms, et cetera, to influence the way we look at all of these things. And we are going to have to come to terms with that reality because...
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It's a technological issue that we're going to have to solve for, and we haven't yet.
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I think whether you're left or right, you have to acknowledge that they are things that are worth doing. Having a secure border so that people don't come into your country illegally is a basic duty of government. Economic prosperity is a basic duty of government. Withdrawing America from a kind of
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No, no. I think we're living through an era of the fragmentation of our reality. And it comes, you know, Scott's point about people behaving better in person is true. Although I would say there is the windscreen effect or the windshield effect, which is if you someone cuts you up in traffic and you feel that there's some kind of physical separation between the two of you.
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most people behave slightly differently in that context than they would if they were sitting next to somebody face to face in a bar.
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So it's, it's, there's something about being physically present with other people that changes it, which is one of the reasons, you know, I know you have pretty much all your interviews face to face and we do as well, because I generally speaking is very difficult to connect authentically with people.
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Obviously we've managed to do it in the course of this conversation, but beyond that, it's difficult. Um, And so we're going to have to work on that. But the point I'm trying to make is this isn't a political issue. It's not an X issue. It's not an Elon Musk issue. It's a technological issue. We're living through, probably already have lived through most of the digital revolution.
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And I used to, as a kid, love Isaac Asimov's science fiction books. And one of the reasons I did enjoy reading them so much is it was a world in which there was an exploration of, What does the creation of robots, which is what we're living through,
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mean for morality what does it mean for philosophy what does it mean for humanity what does it mean for uh what how do we build rules in a world in which you have these machines that take every rule literally and suddenly you find that uh you know the desire to protect humanity results in the end of humanity how do you how do you navigate all of this and that is what we're living through we are also living through a period when our realities are being fragmented and so
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simultaneously aggressive but weak posture around the world where America sort of says, yeah, yeah, we're going to get involved in these foreign conflicts, but we're not actually going to then practically help Ukraine win that war is a kind of stupid position on both whichever side you're on. So on all of these things, and of course, you know, Scott mentioned wokeness.
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we believe a very small set of things that other people like us somewhere in a very different part of the world, as Daniel was saying earlier, also believe. And we now live in this, we don't live in England or in Scotland or in America. We live almost like in a world of people who think like us in the West, right?
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And then other people live right next door to us who live in a whole different world because they consume a whole different set of information. That is the reality. We can complain about it. That is not going to change. And the only thing I really want to raise where I disagree with Scott about this idea that Facebook and X, et cetera, they are... and not platforms.
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I don't think you can apply the same media organisation section to them. I don't think it's appropriate. They are platforms in which people publish information. The artificial amplification is a fair point. We need to deal with that. We need to deal with the bot problem. That's a very difficult one because...
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One of the challenges is the only way to really deal that I can see with the bot problem is to get people to verify their identity online. That obviously has a lot of questions around that because once you start forcing people to give their identity over to some anonymous blob online, who's collecting that data? What are they doing with it?
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And, you know, if you don't like Elon Musk or if you don't like the previous Twitter regime, as I didn't, then the question for you is, well, you know, let's say right now I look at Twitter and I'm like, yeah, I'm happy to verify my identity. I'm happy to confirm who I am. Well, what if, you know, George Soros buys X off Elon at some point? Are you still happy that that information is being held?
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Are you still happy that the anonymous account you've now made You know, what happens to the anonymous activists speaking about the Ayatollah's regime in Iran? What happens to them when they've had to verify their identity and the wrong person buys our platform or someone hacks it, et cetera?
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So it's a conversation that's not – if there were easier solutions on these issues, they would have been solved by now. This is a very difficult thing for humanity to navigate, and we're going to have to find a way to do it, and incrementally so.
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I think he's absolutely right that there is a massive backlash happening around the world because lots and lots of people who were completely apolitical until the last three or four years or maybe until 2016 just feel like the world has gone crazy and suddenly they're supposed to pretend that men can change sex and become women and now they're entitled to be in female prisons and
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I agree. Well, that's what I'm saying. I think some of the ideas that you're putting forward, right or wrong, I don't know, but these are the conversations we should be having. How do we make sure? I mean, my son is two and a half years old, and my wife has become a complete screen Nazi, so he's probably not going to get a phone until he's about 40.
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But I think your point about people shouldn't be on social media.
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People shouldn't be on social media until they're 16. Absolutely correct. What that's doing to the minds of, well, everybody, but particularly young people who are really susceptible to it. You're completely right. The verification dimension is difficult, as I say. We're going to have to hash this all out as humanity. We're just going to have to work this all out.
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How do we live in this new world that we now live in? It's going to take some time, and I hope it's not as bad as the last time the information space was revolutionized, which was the printing press. That caused about two centuries of religious war. Hopefully we can avoid that. And part of the way to do that is to create environments which are uncensored, where people can express different ideas.
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We can have these battles and eventually come to some sort of mutual understanding. I hope that happens.
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you know, if your teenager says that they are the opposite sex, you're supposed to chop their breasts off, and all of this other stuff that ordinary people just look at and go, this is crazy. Like, I am liberal, but this isn't liberal. This is some kind of weird thing that's going on.
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In the UK and in most of Europe, it's an issue that Daniel raised earlier, which is in the UK, our energy prices are four times what they are in the United States. That is an ideological decision. It's done because we're saving the planet. That's what we're being told. The reality is our contribution to global carbon emissions is we're responsible for 2% of global carbon emissions in the world.
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And I see the backlash against all of that all over the Western world, and I think Donald Trump signifies that people are fed up of that. And I have been warning for a very long time that if the woke left continues to exercise this level of influence on our public debate, the reaction will be the rise of the right.
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Making British pensioners freeze to death every winter because they can't afford fuel bills is not the solution to climate change. And if you amplify that further, driving businesses out of business, making our economy uncompetitive, making Britain unable to generate wealth for itself and for its future is not the moral position. Net zero.
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which is the impoverishment of our society for ideological reasons, has been positioned as the moral cause where we're saving the planet, we're ending climate change. We're not doing any of that. All we're doing is virtue signalling and making our fellow citizens suffer. So what we should be talking about is how do we make energy cheap again so that we can have a prosperous economy?
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And guess what? When people are prosperous, that's when they actually start being responsible about pollution, about throwing away things they don't need. And also, when you have money, that's when you can invest money in scientific research, which allows you to find cleaner, better forms of energy. That's what we should be doing.
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We should be making sure that we generate as much wealth for our fellow citizens as possible because a lot of people are struggling.
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And I think it's deeply, deeply immoral to impoverish already poor pensioners in this country and to prevent businesses from hiring people and giving them jobs and opportunities, including the young men that Scott is talking about, because we are saving the planet and we're trying to keep little Greta happy. We're not doing any of that. We're not successful in that.
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We should stop pretending and we should do what Donald Trump said he plans to do, which is drill, baby, drill. We should be exploring and exploiting all the energy reserves we have in this country in order to create clean energy and better forms of energy for the future, as well as to improve the well-being of our fellow citizens.
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That's what we should be talking about a hell of a lot more than we are.
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And in the UK too. And Stephen, let me just, before you wrap up, fill the stats out a little bit more. Obviously, everyone understands that geopolitically we're in a pretty tense time and there's conflicts happening. Britain is in a position now where we would struggle. You've got to remember British history. Britain is... Britannia rules the waves, right?
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The way that Britain has become a great nation throughout history is by having a powerful fleet. We would struggle to build warships now because we've closed down all our steelworks because we're green. Right. It's insanity. And on every other issue to do with energy and industry, we have basically deliberately moved our production facilities to other countries. OK, great idea.
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And Donald Trump is one of the most diplomatic and pleasant versions of what you're likely to get if the left keeps going crazy. We will see. what challenges the world throws at him over the next four years, and whether he's capable of responding to them.
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Globalisation, make things cheaper, ship things. Wonderful. OK. What happened during COVID? What happened when suddenly the entire chains of production weren't quite operating the way that they normally do? Oh, China's suddenly hoarding all the masks. Interesting. So what do you think is going to happen when there's a war?
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Oh, they're just going to keep shipping the steel to us to make the battleships and the warplanes that we need to fight them? That's what you think is going to happen? This whole thing, this whole agenda is ideological insanity. And what Ed Miliband is about to do to this country when it comes to this issue needs to talk about way more. And it is about economic prosperity.
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It is about housing because one of the reasons we don't build as much housing as we need to is, again, building housing produces emissions and we don't want to be not green. So that's why people in their 30s and 40s are now living in flat shares for four people. Right. We have got to let go of this obsession with net zero. We have got to build. We have got to drill. We have got to produce energy.
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And we have got to stop thinking that the moral thing to do is to make our poor citizens suffer in order that we feel good about saving the planet, which we're not even remotely saving by doing this.
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For me, my son's two and a half, so it's a little bit early for this pep talk. But my message to him when he's old enough to hear it is going to be this. Your grandfather, your great-grandfather, my grandfather, was taken as a slave laborer from Soviet Ukraine to Nazi Germany. Your great-grandmother was born in the Soviet gulag.
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Your great-grandmother lived through the German occupation and is now living through Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. You are not living in the worst time ever.
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You're surrounded by pussies if you are a man and if you do your job and if you learn the skills that you need to do and if you pursue the things that you want to do with your life to the best of your ability, if you believe in yourself, if you believe that you're talented, if you actually achieve the things that you set your mind to, there's never been a better time in the history of humanity than now.
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You're surrounded mostly by people who feel sorry for themselves. If you're not one of them, you're going to clean up Young women are looking for a young man like you who's actually going to stand up for himself, who's actually going to go out there and achieve and be confident. Be that, and you're going to clean up when it comes to finding the right partner for yourself.
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You're going to clean up when it comes to making money. You're going to clean up when it comes to your career. You're going to clean up on every front because the bar has never been lower. The bar has never been lower. So just go out and be a man, and life is going to be great.
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Well, politics is about marketing, and Trump is the marketer in chief. He's very good at branding and selling ideas, and partly that's what politics is about. But in terms of the economy, I think Scott is entirely right. It's one of the reasons I admire America so much, the sense of dynamism and economic growth and the desire to create things and build things.
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It's an observation I've had every time I've been there. You know, if you have a successful restaurant in the UK, you go, well, I've got a successful restaurant. In America, if you have a successful restaurant, you open a second one and a third one and you create a chain, right? So their attitude to business more broadly is fantastic and I love it.
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But I think the difference is that I don't think Americans were comparing the American economy under Joe Biden to the European economies. They were comparing the American economy under Joe Biden to the American economy under Donald Trump in his first term and also what they expect him to do for the future.
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When they look at the fact that he's got real business leaders in government now, like Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk talking about government efficiency.
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We have to admit that all Western countries have a massively bloated civil service, what we call civil service in the UK and the administrative state in the US that wastes a huge amount of money that produces very little in terms of output in many cases. And that needs to be slimmed down. And people, I think, are very excited about that. And when I talk to
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business leaders in America, including ones that were never on the Trump train, so to speak. So many of them went over to his side in this election cycle because they just felt that he was going to continue to accelerate American growth. and continue to deliver prosperity for the American people.
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Now, Scott's point about tariffs and all of these other things, you know, I've listened to Donald Trump enough now to know that you should not necessarily be taking him literally. I think many of the things he says are negotiation tactics and signaling. So when he says, I'm going to build this or do that or do this, you have to sort of read between the lines.
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When he says, you know, this will be the worst thing that you just go, he's saying to people like, you better work with me. Otherwise, this is going to work out badly for you on all of these things. And so it remains to be seen whether he's successful in those tactics of getting what he wants. Look, America is always going to be an unequal society.
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It's designed in a way that is going to make it that way. In America, the focus is how do we grow the pie? In Europe, the focus is how do we divide it up so everyone gets their fair little share, right? So Americans are about expanding the pie and then the people who bake the pie get as much of it as they possibly can.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And this is what happened with all that woke cancellation stuff as well, where it was a very small number of people who made themselves look a lot bigger online. Right. In order to then get companies to back down, to get universities to back down, in order to get other organizations who were just scared of the bad attention to back down. I look at a lot of stuff that happens on social media.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I'm going, there's no fucking way that has got 80,000 likes organically. That's not real. You know?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's one of the things that I'm really hopeful Elon can solve with X. That was one of the things he said when he took over. We need to deal with the bot problem. I think there's more to do on that front for sure.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And that comes back to our Lord of the Rings conversation because even well-intentioned people who are doing things that we might like, everyone's got an agenda, especially billionaires.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And your show is how many times a week do you guys do it? We put two episodes out every week. So Wednesdays and Sundays is interviews.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
So yeah, on our Substack, on the Trigonometry Substack, you get to hear the guest answer your questions. So people send in questions ahead of time.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. That's what we're always thinking about is how do we offer people who support us extra value? Because unlike the people on the internet who say we're controlled opposition paid by blah, blah, blah, we're actually just paid by our fans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
A lot of them are good ones. And what we often do as well is we look through them before the interview. And if we can't get them in at the end, we'll actually try and incorporate them into the discussion itself.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, the hope is, man, the reality is the best teacher, right? So the Democrat brand is so destroyed now, so toxic, that they're going to have to work something out. Because if not, they're just going to keep losing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. And because they destroyed language, now it sort of logically makes sense, right? If these people are Nazis, if you actually thought they were Nazis, like if you actually thought Nazis had taken over your country, you'd pick up a gun, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, but you are someone who's got a family. You're well-adjusted.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. This is what I'm saying. A lot of these people, when you look at their mugshot... I don't want to be unkind, but they don't look particularly well.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And it's very tribal. And you see it now as well, you know, now that the right is in political power. a lot of the people who kind of made their bones challenging the excesses of the left, they're afraid to say anything about the right as well, even though there's things to say. I don't know if you followed the signal group thing.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Is that true? I don't think so. I think the guy who added him has basically said, like, it was our mistake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't think the investigation has been done to say definitively, but I think the White House said we're looking into this. But Tulsi, I think, said it was a mistake. I think Mike Waltz said it was a mistake. Such a crazy mistake.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. They were debating how to do the strikes, whether to do them. There was some debate about that initially. And then initially this journalist, I think he's editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, I think. Which is, he is like the worst guy to get this information to. Absolutely, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If you had to pick somebody, that is not who you pick, right? He must be so pumped.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You know, we had an investigative journalist on the show, and we haven't released the episode yet, but as part of our after the show questions, he mentioned something, which is he said, I'm going from memory here, so Francis, correct me, but basically that Signal had been installed on government devices under the previous administration.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
So it may be the case that that guy's number had been pre-installed during that time. And because of that, the mistake was then made to add him to the group. So we don't know exactly what happened. But at the same time, what I'm saying is, like, the White House admitted it, and then they started having a go at the journalist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If that happened to me... Voltaire? Voltaire. There you go. If that happened to me and my Russian grandmother, we'd be just like, God is punishing you. Yeah, and that's why Russians are scary to fight.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Like, that is not his fucking fault that you added him to the group, right? Not at all.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
A journalist is never going to do that. And that's not his job to do that either. No.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They do. What is it? I think it's called a skiff or something like that. It's a special place where you go. No, but that's a room. I mean an app. Oh, you mean an app?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I love that press conference as well because it's like Bret Baier from Fox interviewing Elon and like seven other Aspie guys and they're all just rattling off numbers. It's 10,000 filing cabinets, 400,000 paper documents. But when you look at it, it basically hasn't changed since the 1950s. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Now you learn lesson. Yeah. We have business to discuss. Yeah, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They're saying they're going to do it in two months. Digitize that in two months.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Low-level autism plus Adderall. Problem solved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Look at this. This is all the data. Well, bro, you make such a good point about nobody giving them credit. I don't know if you've ever had access to other people's money, like in any way, right? Taxpayer money or anything. But I can tell you, Francis and I, we even spent trigonometry, which is our business, money differently to the way that we spend our own because it's slightly different.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's not entirely yours in a way, you know? So when you're dealing with billions of taxpayer dollars, of course it's getting wasted. Of course it's going to corrupt shit. Of course. Of course. It's inevitable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And the question is, what I don't understand is, look, I think it's very possible that when you move quickly, you're going to cancel some things that you might not want to cancel. Things are not going to go perfectly every time, whatever. But ultimately, the question all Western countries have to answer is we're running debt at more than 100 percent of GDP. Right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
What are we going to do about that? We have to deal with it somehow. What's this we shit? You're actually... Bro, you're worse than we are.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, you're 126%, we're about 110%. God damn, really? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, that's why you're trying to deal with it. That's what Elon is trying to do. He's trying to cut the deficit in half and then the idea is you grow the economy and you actually get back to surplus.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I didn't realize Nancy Pelosi was well-endowed. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Really? Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You know, I've got to say, this is a great start to the podcast, and we aren't even stoned.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I do not know. You're a grown man. Look at the size of those fucking sweater hammers. That is incredible.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's a fucking dirty business, man. Oh, it's crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Especially schools. Decades and decades. Especially schools. I mean, we were talking about adolescents earlier. They show a school. I've got a three-year-old. I was looking at it. I think, Jesus, I'm homeschooling all the fucking wake. And Francis was saying the school they show in that series, which is terrifying if you're a parent, is not as bad as some of the schools they used to teach in.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Jesus. And what you're watching, essentially, it looks like a badly run prison. So the adults are not in charge. The kids are telling the teachers to fuck off left, right and center. No one is in control. Most of the kids are learning by watching shit on the screen. They're not interacting with the teacher, etc. And you're right.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If you don't fix that system, those kids don't have a good opportunity.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But I don't think it's no chance. I do think that even in that environment, there are people who follow certain paths. I take a point about music and athletics and sports, et cetera, but there are still people who find a way through that. Sure, there's entrepreneurs that come up with a business idea and get out. It does happen.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And those habits, if they were taught properly to all of those kids, would give them all a better chance. That's not to say they would all become successful, but it would give them structure, discipline, and understanding of how do you advance in the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You got it from Joe Rogan. You gotta be 13. Let's not be unreasonable.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
We banned katana knives now, so we're safe.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't know if I've seen the latest.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
100%. Well, there's your positive message for the day, everybody. Fuck me, that is terrifying.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I know you find that shocking, Joe, but in England, in Britain, that is like run of the mill. So in the 70s and 80s, each football team, and to some extent now, they had their own what's called a firm. which are these hooligans whose only thing, they didn't really give a shit about the football, the soccer.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. I'm pretty good at debating. I'm not sure I'm going to win that one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You have to be very, very, very careful when you give power to people in order to keep you safe. Yes. Very careful. And we talk about this all the time. We have a couple of younger guys working for us. And we say to them, you guys don't know what the world was like before 9-11. You don't know. You walk into an airport, barely any security. You were a lot more free back then.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And those things are getting taken away for your safety.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You're never going to go back to a pre-9-11 world when it comes to airport security.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Same with liquids. Yeah. Same with liquids. It's all goofy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They would get together with the supporters of the firms of other teams to have fights in the car park outside the stadium. And they would travel all around the country doing that. So it's actually the, it's one thing I love about American sports. Like you can go to the game with your kids and not worry about the stuff that people are going to be screaming and shouting and all that violence.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. You've got to be very careful giving power and information to government. That's why government should be as small as possible, but the right size, right? You need government. Yes. But you have to be so careful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Most people don't know it because they've grown up in a very comfortable environment, particularly in the West. Francis and I obviously his family from Venezuela and from the Soviet Union. Like you don't. That's kind of a red pill right there. You know, going through those experiences. You know, you can you can trust this government if you support it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But there's going to be another government of a party that you don't like. At some point. And you've got to think very carefully about what powers you're giving them. Very careful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You are a lot more chilled out than we are in Europe about that stuff, believe it or not.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, the same thing happened in Russia in the 90s. So when Vladimir Putin came to power under Boris Yeltsin, there was a kind of liberalization. There was an opening up. There was comedy shows about politics that would make fun of politicians, etc., The moment Vladimir Putin became president ended on day one.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He closed down the NTV, took it over, gave it to somebody else, shut down all the comedy that made fun of politicians. And, you know, that's how you kind of know, you know. That's how you know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's going to be ethical and reasonable. You're scaring me today, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, it's going to be like arguing with a person who's using a computer, says the computer doesn't let me. That's what it's going to be like. It's going to be much worse. Much worse.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Why is he doing this? He just brought us in here to just talk to us about the dark, dark future. Or not. Or not. Yeah, sure, Joe. Thanks, mate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, I did that to him. I did that to him during the pandemic. So at the height of the pandemic, when things were looking like pretty fucking dark, everything's getting like shut down. You can't go out. You can't do this. I showed him V for Vendetta. Have you ever seen that movie?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. And he was like, oh, my God. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
So you know the truth, my friend.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. Well, that's the thing that scares me. We interviewed Andrew Schultz and then Charlemagne back to back. And they both made the same point, which is that a lot of people who are not doing well in society right now are really not doing well. They're really hurting. Things are getting more expensive. Things are getting more difficult.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And a lot like I think it was I think it was Andrew who made this point that, you know, this whole free Luigi thing. It's one of the reasons that that got you're looking at on Twitter and basically going people are celebrating the guy who killed someone. Thank you.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
The hysteria we have about warming now, we had about cooling. It was ice age. It was ice age. We're all going to freeze to death. We're so fucking arrogant as a species, aren't we? It's not arrogance.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
That's basically what professional sports is, especially soccer. It's like you're trying to do your best in front of 50,000 people who are all screaming that you're a cunt.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You can't let them have that kind of control over you. Do you know what we're doing in the UK now? What? Industrial energy prices are four times what they are in America. And we can't even make our own virgin steel.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Because of net zero. And not only that, what we're doing is we're not actually reducing our carbon footprint because we still need the steel, right? And we still need the stuff that you make with energy. So we outsource it to India. We outsource it to China. And then we ship it back. And we're like, no carbon footprint. Oh, my God. That's so crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And so we're destroying our own industry, basically.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
By the way, someone having autism doesn't mean they're wrong. But you don't want a young girl leading a global movement.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Can you imagine being famous, Joe?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Jamie, see if you can find that story. I heard about one or two students that are getting... Yeah, I heard about them as well. But this is a different thing. This is a different one. This is a director.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Do you know what they, I mean, they're blinding them. Oh, my God. That's what the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is doing. They're blinding the men.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And I think that's why Lord of the Rings is such a powerful thing that everyone can relate to because it's ultimately about the relationship with power. And Frodo is trying to make small government, right? That's what he's trying to do. But every one of us... Every single one of us has a Boromir inside of us who wants to come along and go, no, no, no, we'll take this and we'll use it for good.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Right. We'll use the power. No, no, give it to me. I'll take care of it. I'll sort everything out. You know, why don't we use this against the enemy? And that person lives inside of every human being. The person who says, give me the power. I'll take care of this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Power is like that, man. Yeah. It is. And it doesn't matter how much power you experience. Even a little bit of power that you didn't have before. Oh, I've got this. I can do this.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But it's also bad if you have good intentions as well. I give you this example. I don't know if you are familiar with Tarkovsky. He's like a Russian director and he based – he did the Stalker film. You're familiar with it?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. It's not about a guy who stalks women. It's a different thing. It's based on a book by the Strogatzky brothers. Yeah. It was called Roadside Picnic. And it's basically about a zone where the aliens came and they did something there nobody knows. And there's all kinds of crazy artifacts and all that kind of stuff.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But anyway, in that book, there is a scene where there are people who oppose this alien thing. And they say, we mustn't use this. We mustn't touch this. We need to get these aliens out of here. And another guy says to him, why do you fight these aliens? Like, they want good. They're trying to help us. They're trying to improve things.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And he says, I don't fight them because I think they're going to do evil or they want to do evil. I fight them because they're going to do good as they understand it. Whoa. And that's why power is dangerous, because everyone can say, I don't want power to do bad things. I want power to do good things. Now give it to me.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Stalin. We did a great episode with a guy called Stephen Hicks. He's a historian of philosophy and a philosopher. And he basically explained to us that the Nazis, they saw themselves as heroic. They weren't doing evil in their heads. They were saving the world in their minds.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And they were German, too. So they were very efficient.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And you're sitting across from somebody, so at an energy level, you go, oh, hello. Yeah, there it is. There it is.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
There it is. Give me the power. Give me the power.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And we do need those people, but there have to be checks and balances.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
that's why I brought up the signal story because like the obvious thing that happened there somebody made a mistake mistakes happen you make mistakes I make mistakes you admit it you accept it you investigate you find out what happened and you move on but there are a lot of people doing exactly what you said but what about this what about Hillary Clinton well she's not in fucking power now we're not talking about Hillary Clinton we're not talking about Huma and the laptop we're talking about what just happened but here's what I was going back to earlier why don't they have their own encrypted app
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
If the government is doing it, about a trillion, mate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And look, I want all these people to crush. I want them all to be incredibly successful at what they do in your country and in our country. That's interesting. Because it makes our country better, right? Yeah. Yeah, of course you do.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
The Britain is the greatest country in the world? I don't know. She just moved there. Well, give her a couple of years. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I think that's one of the big fundamental debates between left and right. Thomas Sowell has a great book about this called Conflict of Visions. It's really fundamentally about what you see as the truth about human nature. The right thinks human nature is imperfect. And that's what it is. And you have to deal with that reality. Some people are going to be criminals.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Some people are going to be drug addicts. And the left, particularly at the extreme ends, thinks in a utopian way. Everything is changeable. Everything is perfectable. Everybody can be improved.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Anybody can become a woman. And that's where you get like, you know, the homelessness problem in America. It partly is about that. It's about the idea, well, we'll shut down these terrible and they were terrible mental institutions. Right. Right. And then we give people freedom. Because anybody can handle freedom, right? Freedom is great in and of itself. It's wonderful.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And then you leave mentally ill people and drug addicted people on the streets where they have a horrible life. And that's really the big difference. Whereas the right, obviously, it really believes in this idea that human nature is corrupted, I suppose. And you have to put things in place to manage that. And both those extremes can go in the wrong direction.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And that's why you need a balance between the two.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Biracial bitch. That's what I am.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. And what did you guys do to cause this? Nothing. We're just walking down the street. Wow. Yeah. See, we walk around a lot in America, which I think a lot of people, most people drive here. So we encounter a lot of that. And in every major city that we've been to, there is a hell of a lot of people who are just mentally ill, man. That's what they are. And they need help. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They don't need to be there with a fucking shopping cart on the street with all their belongings out of their brains.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You invite Xi Jinping over, they clean the streets right up, man. Immediately.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He's doing an interesting pivot at the moment, isn't he, Gavin Newsom?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, well, we interviewed someone. Have you seen Adolescence, this thing that's doing, it's supposed to be the most watched thing on Netflix. It's on course.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. So it's about, spoiler alert, so if you don't want to just tune out, but it's basically about a 13-year-old kid who is getting bullied by a girl at school. She calls him an incel or whatever, and he goes and stabs her and kills her. And it's crazy. And it's all about that. And we had a big, we had this guy, an incel expert on to talk about it, a guy who was actually in Austin here.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. That's very British, though. British people love pets a lot more than they love people, in my experience. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you hurt an animal in Britain, you're like a fucking pedophile.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
It's also got a class thing as well. Fox hunting is seen as a very privileged thing to do because not everyone has a horse, you know.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Why wouldn't he kill any of those chickens?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah. Not practicing. I understand. That's why he came to see us, Josh.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He researches incels. He actually works with David Buss. You've had him on the show, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. We wanted to have him on. Yeah, David Buss, evolutionary psychologist.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Just Texas. Do you know, Francis, we forget something. This country is fucking wild. This country is crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He bought a lion on the black market. That does not sound true to me, mate.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You never stand around when someone's doing stupid shit, huh?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, we actually just had a report in the UK, which shows that for a long time, people were saying, actually, these people commit crime at a lower level. Who said that? Why would they say that? Oh, people say that all the time when they defend illegal immigration. It's such a fucking bullshit argument.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
He's one of the greatest evolutionary psychologists in the world, I think. He's one of the pioneers.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Yeah, yeah. The gay barber guy? Yeah, yeah. It's scary, man.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, from what I read, I think it was in Time magazine, Jamie, if you can pull it up and maybe we can get it accurate. But basically, with a bunch of these Trend our Agua guys, allegedly they got one guy who at least one guy who wasn't a criminal, who was just a gay barber, who I think, according to the story, came here legally. He was here legally. That's what they said.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't know what the details are. Maybe Jamie can find it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
From what it said in that story. Now, this is the problem, right? Because the mainstream media has been putting out so much shit that I don't know what to believe anymore, right?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And so it's difficult. But it's something that we actually brought up in one of our conversations. We interviewed the guy from the Heritage Foundation. We brought this up. Because I think we talked about this with Doge as well. When you do things quickly and you do things aggressively, that's how you get shit done. But that's also when mistakes get made.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And I think a human being being plucked out of nowhere and ending up in a country he's never been in, in a maximum security prison with gang members, seems like a bad thing to happen to me. It's horrific. It's horrific. I don't think that should be controversial.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, if you think about it from a government perspective, and this is where I think it gets quite sinister, is once you've done that, the incentive structure is never going to be to admit that and deal with it. The incentive structure is to say nothing, to cover it up, to pretend it didn't happen. That is horrible. So someone ends up in a black hole. But we've seen it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
We've seen it in every country, including in America.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
There's one in Forbes as well, Jamie.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I sent you the Forbes story, John. If you can forward it to Jamie, maybe he can pull it up.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
But if you think about it, Joe, like I say, if you're rounding up hundreds of people, mistakes are going to get made because everyone's human. And you then have to have a system, I think, that allows you to amend and make adjustments for that.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And this is the trouble with government. The incentive structure is all wrong. Like to admit that is now embarrassing. Right. That's crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
They're saying they are, but they're not removing them. Interesting.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
That's not even his country. Right. You deport people back to their country. Right. It's nuts.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Is that the Khalil guy? No, the woman.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Have you seen this one? No. I saw it, but I haven't delved into it.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
She engaged in activities in support of Hamas, a foreign terrorist organization that relishes the killing of Americans.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I don't know what the law of that is because she's not an American national. Right. But instinctively, I'm just like, that's a lot. That's like crazy.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
I thought she had a student visa.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
She'd previously been arrested in April 2024 for taking part. Yeah.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
And I'm in two minds about that because I think on a free speech basis, unless I don't know the law.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
We don't know, right? But I think there's – the legal thing from what I've read is very complicated because if someone is not a US national, they may be subject to different rules or they may not. I think that's a kind of live debate. But from a purely principles perspective, someone being arrested for writing an article seems extreme.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
She engaged in activities in support of Hamas. But what does that mean?
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
You know, look, the counter argument on this, and I think it's one that I as someone who visits the United States also feel is like I don't think the United States would have given this person a visa if she had told them this is what she plans to do in America. Right. So that's their argument.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
That's the argument that Marco Rubio is making, which is if we'd known you were going to do this, we were never going to give you a visa.
The Joe Rogan Experience
#2297 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin
Well, there have been a lot of protests, pro-Palestine protests in Columbia.