Laura Kuenssberg

Now, the phrase two-tier was actually first used in this context many years ago, first of all, by Tommy Robinson, Stephen Yaxley, Lennon, back in, I think, 2012 or 2014 for the first time.

But it really came into more common usage in the mainstream in 2024 when we saw the response to these riots after those terrible killings in Southport.

But with all of your experience, Danae, is two-tier policing a real thing?

And that was an Israeli football team going to play a match where there were concerns in Birmingham.

So it's really important then to say, as you've suggested, that if you look at the big picture, the overwhelming message from the statistics is that it is minorities who still get a rougher deal.

That's what you're saying.

So that is the big picture and you've explained that very clearly.

But do you think in recent years that there has been a culture created where police officers trying to do their best

are too sensitive to the fear of offending or the fear of being accused of racism.

And I think a lot of newscasters and a lot of members of the public might have been quite surprised this week when they read, because it's been discussed a lot, when they read or heard about the guidance sent out by police chiefs that does say clearly in text

People shouldn't be treated the same.

Now, to most people, I think reading that you think, well, hang on a minute.

I thought we were all meant to be equal before before the law.

How on earth is it that that's the guidance being given to police officers?

So so so let's just explain where you think that came from.

And then I'd love to know if you think that something has gone awry in the efforts to tackle that big picture we've been discussing.

A person from Newcastle who might not remember or who weren't around because it's quite some time ago now.

That was a real moment.

moment of realisation and all this has been thrown into the harsh glare of public discussion Danny hasn't it because of this awful case around what happened to Henry Novak where just to remind ourselves his killer

had told the police that he was the one who'd been racially abused when he made a 999 call.