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Chapter 1: What sparked the debate about two-tier policing in the Henry Nowak case?
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Ah, että se oli just tämmönen päivä, kyllä on jäänyt mieleen. Komeet maalit, 95 Neverfoket. Joo, kyllä lätke on mahtavaa. Mitä? Mitä? Siis mä puhuin tästä talosta. 95 maalattiin talkoilla. Olisiko kesärempän aika? Käsittele talo säännöllisesti Tikkurilan kestävillä talomaaleilla ja se säilyy kauniina vuosikymmenestä toiseen. Tikkurila.fi
On ollut yksi suuri tarina joka päivä päivän jälkeen, ja se liittyy huonolliseen tragediaan yhdellä perheellä. 18-vuotias Henri Novak, joka tullut Suomessa kesäkuussa. Hän oli vain päässyt kotiin päivän jälkeen.
But the sentencing of his killer this week has prompted a huge and angry conversation in this country about policing, about race. And fuel has been poured on the fire in the last 24 hours, with none other than the Vice President of the United States, J.D. Vance, piling in to the row.
It's become a huge and fraught argument between reform, the conservatives, the government and the other parties. And exactly what the family of Henry did not want to happen. Let's start today with their plea outside the court on Monday for politicians and all of us to stay calm. We need real solutions. We need investment in prevention. We need stronger action on the sale, the ownership and carrying of all knives.
Ja kuten tämä tapauksessa näyttää, meidän täytyy käyttää yksinkertaisuutta meidän lakiamme. Tämä ei tarkoita väärästä reaktiivisuutta. Tämä ei tarkoita mennä ekstremiin. Se tarkoittaa vain yksinkertaisuutta lakiamme ja järjestelmämme. KC-prosessin keskustelussa käsiteltiin, että tämä ei ole tapauksena seikkailta. Tämä ei ole tapauksena rasismista. Tämä on tapauksena murhasta.
Compare Mr. Novak's statement with what J.D. Vance posted on X yesterday. He said Henry Novak died the same way a civilization died, abandoned, handcuffed by the authorities who neither trusted nor cared for him, accused of hate crimes he didn't commit.
He should still be alive today and he would be if the last few generations of European elites had stood their ground against the politics of self-hatred and the mass invasion of migrants. Now we know that Henry's killer was born and lived in the United Kingdom. We don't know if JD Vance knows that.
We don't know if he would think it was relevant, or indeed if politicians are just wanting to pile into this row for their own purposes. We'll talk about all of that, these sensitive issues, on Saturday's edition of Newscast. Newscast. Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order. Six, seven, eight, nine.
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Chapter 2: How do JD Vance's comments relate to the murder of Henry Nowak?
Immigration and mix those in all together and it's just wrong, it's dangerous and it's deeply unhelpful in my view.
Puhutaan sitten asioista ja lupataan poliitikasta hieman. Tämä onnistuva tapaukset ovat johtaneet yliopistoon enemmän, jos haluat, tällä kysymyksellä yliopistossa poliisipolitiikasta. Yliopistossa oli ensimmäisenä tässä kontekstissa useita vuosia sitten, ensimmäisenä Tommy Robinsonin kanssa, Stephen Lennonin kanssa 2012 tai 2014 alussa.
But it really came into more common usage in the mainstream in 2024 when we saw the response to these riots after those terrible killings in Southport. But with all of your experience, Danne, is two-tier policing a real thing?
Not in the way that I think it is being portrayed by Tommy Robinson, by Nigel Farage, by some people in the Conservative Party as well. I don't believe that that is a description that applies to the police service in the UK. I think there are cases and there are incidents that you can absolutely look at and say...
Miksi poliisi toimii näin? Ovatko he rauhoittaneet rasismista? Puhuttiin kruumi-kannan skandalista, ja Louise Casey ja hänen peruskysymyksensä näyttivät, että joissain tapauksissa poliisi ei toimittanut niin kuin olisi pitänyt, koska näistä huolestuksista.
You might also point to the West Midlands police row over Maccabi Tel Aviv and say that the way that West Midlands police responded to the concerns about that football match that was going to take place at Villa Park by effectively banning Maccabi Tel Aviv from coming. And that was an Israeli football team going to play a match where there were concerns in Birmingham.
Kyllä, ja West Midlandsin puheenjohtaja pysähti lopulta siitä, ei vain siitä, mitä he tekevät, vaan myös siitä, miten hän vastasi siitä. Voit sanoa, että se oli esimerkki poliisista, jotka eivät vastanneet oikeasti
yhteiskunnallisia huoltoja ja liikkuvat liikkuvasti heidän suuntaansa, voisi sanoa. Voit löytää tapahtumia, mutta onko se poliisipuolueen tunteita? En usko, että se on. Jos jokaisella ryhmällä on enemmän huolta poliisipuolueen ja kriisijärjestelmän kautta, se on isoja ihmisiä erityisesti ja etnillisiä yksityiskohtaisia yleensä. Statistit sopivat siihen.
And the BBC Panorama program on Charing Cross police station, which came out at the end of last year and which has led to 10 police officers being found guilty of gross misconduct, shows that there are pockets of racism and anti-migrant...
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Chapter 3: What is the evidence for or against two-tier policing in the UK?
että ihmiset eivät pitäisi olla käsitellyt samalla tavalla. Useimmille, jotka lukevat tämän, ajattelevat, että katsotaanko, että me olemme olleet olleet yksilöitä ennen lakia. Miten taivaalla on se, että se on käsiteltävä poliisilähtöille? Kertoisitko, mistä mieltä se tuli? Sitten haluaisin tietää, onko sinusta jotain mennyt rauhassa eteenpäin, kun tehtiin käsittelemään tämän ison kuvan?
I think, broadly speaking, I think there needs to be a fundamental review of the anti-racism guidance, policies and training in the police service. And I think now will be a really good moment to do that. I know that there is the National Police Chiefs Council, the leadership body for policing in England and Wales, is looking at that anti-racism commitment guidance that you cited. But I think it needs to be broader than that.
Tämä on siksi, että mielestäni on ollut mahdollisesti yliopistettavaa korrektiota. Meillä oli McPhersonin raportti Stephen Lawrencelle, joka raportoiti vuonna 1999 ja teki monta suomalaisia suosituksia, jotka olivat täysin oikeita heidän aikansa. Ei vain rasismia ja diskriminaatiota, vaan myös siitä, miten poliitit toimivat itseään murheiden tutkimuksissa ja perusliigassa ja muun muassa.
And that was generally regarded as an absolutely correct series of recommendations. It was a sort of breakthrough moment as well, wasn't it? From newscasters who might not remember or who weren't around, because it's quite some time ago now. That was a real...
moment of realization. And all this has been thrown into the harsh glare of public discussion, Danny, hasn't it? Because of this awful case around what happened to Henry Novak, where, just to remind ourselves, his killer
oli kertoa poliisiin, että hän oli se, joka oli rasistisesti vahvistunut, kun hän teki 999-kysymyksen. Poliisikäytäjät tämän jälkeen tuli tilanteeseen miettimällä sitä, eivätkä he sitten vastasivat Henri Novak-politiikasta auttamistaan, eivätkä he antaisivat hänet ja harrastivat hänet, kun hän jäi syövän maan. Ja se on oikeastaan se, miksi kaikki nämä asiat ovat tullut ulos ja sopivat tätä keskustelua siitä, onko poliisi tehnyt liian paljon kiinnostusta.
to the possibility of being accused of racism or being racist in how they're going about their business. And at this point, we don't know what was going through those police officers' minds, and that will be investigated, but the issue is absolutely up there in headlights. And there's a long history, isn't there, of trying to deal with all these issues for the police, because if you go back in time, the evidence suggests very strongly there was a lot of dreadful behaviour, as revealed by the McPherson report back in the late 90s.
The McPherson report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence, which took place in 1993, was absolutely essential. The recommendations were accepted, I think, in their entirety. And they made huge changes to the way that murders were investigated, the way that victims and witnesses were treated, and then also around race and discrimination. And it's worth remembering that Stephen's murder was never properly investigated by the police for about 20 years.
Järjestelmä oli syntynyt rasismista, korruptiivisista allekirjoituksista ja maailmasta. Me olemme, mielestäni, maailmasta lähellä siitä.
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Chapter 4: How does racism impact police responses to different communities?
and procedures and guidelines. And can I just quote from... Do. I mean, it's a complete word salad. So this is the anti-racism commitment that came out of the police race action plan that was published last year by the National Police Chiefs Council. It says, and I quote, commitment to racial equity means producing equality of policing outcomes End quote.
I can't understand what that means or what it's trying to get at. I can't begin to think how a young police constable, and most of them are in their 20s or 30s at the moment, trying to apply that commitment on the streets in a fast-moving situation, how they meant to navigate that with that in their heads, plus everything else that's going on and all the other guidance. I mean, it's dreadful. I think what it's trying to say and what it should be getting at is,
Olemme kaikki erilaisia. Olemme kaikki saaneet tilanteeseen erilaisia elämyskokemuksia. Jotkut ovat syntyneet rasismiin ja joitakin ovat syntyneet vaikeuksiin. Olemme saaneet erilaisia elämyskokemuksia. Olemme kaikki saaneet erilaisia kokemuksia ja vastaamme ja reagoimme erilaisilla tavoilla ja teemme erilaisia tilanteita erilaisin. Käytä yksinkertaisuutta.
That's really, I think, what it's trying to say, or should be saying, but it's dressed up in this language. And I can understand now why police officers, A, are confused, and B, they might overcorrect and deal with allegations of racism or race hate in a way that's perhaps over the top.
It's interesting, our colleague Sima Katecho spends a lot of time covering these issues. She's been talking to police officers, many of them privately in the last few days, because people don't necessarily want to talk publicly about these difficult issues. And I just want to read one of them's quote to Sima, and she's written a really interesting piece on the website. She said, we've had several reports about, this is a police officer talking to her, she's quoting, we have several reports about how racist we are in the last few years when it comes to black people and Asian people.
So we're very cautious when handling cases involving different races. And so what happened in Southampton is easy to see why. Maybe we are too cautious now.
I think for some police officers that's probably very true. I think for others they will respond more differently perhaps and they've got more confidence. But I know back in 2020 I did a Radio 4 documentary looking at racism in the police. And one of the things that's very striking is, and I think it's probably still the case, that black officers, black members of police staff and ethnic minorities broadly are overrepresented in the police misconduct system.
verrattuna heidän vihreämpäänsä. Yksi seurauksista, joista se on laitettu eteenpäin, ja joissa on olemassa monenlaisia raportteja, jotta ymmärretään miksi, on se, että kun vanha tai etnillinen vahvistusjohtaja on huomannut vaikka hieman pysyvää tai hieman pysyvää, sen sijaan kuin käsittelemään se informaattisesti,
heidän johtajansa ja ympäristöjänsä ovat niin pysyviä siitä, että he sanovat, että he sopivat kaikkea kirjassaan, joten he käsittelevät sen myötätunnon prosessiin,
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Chapter 5: What changes are being proposed in policing laws after Henry Nowak's murder?
Tapahtuipa kerran, että pessimisti, optimisti ja saletisti suunnittelivat tapasiltaa. Ja niinhän siinä kävi, että saletisti onnistui. Saletisti onnistuu! Saletisti!
Tuli pulkkamäkiä, polttareita tai puutarhajuhlia. Löydät nyt yli tuhat pysyvästi edullista tuotetta K-ruokakaupoista. Meille Akria-eläinvakuutuksessa on tärkeää, että lemmikilläsi on mahdollisuus parhaaseen hoitoon. Eläinvakuutuksemme tarjoavat sopivan turvan kaikenlaisiin tarpeisiin. Sinä valitset vakuutuksen laajuuden, me tarjoamme maksuttoman etäeläinlääkärin sekä nopean suorakorvauksen klinikan kassalla.
Ja se on se, miksi mielestäni täytyy olla todellinen näkökulma poliisien kautta. näistä erilaisista koulutusohjelmista, joista jotkut ovat kritisoineet. Antirasismi-ohjelmien koulutusohjelmat. Onko niillä oikea vaikutus, oikea vaikutus? Onko se vain yksityiskohtainen koulutus? Onko se vauhti aikaa? Onko se vahvistettavaa työntekijöitä?
I think, why not? Let's have that look. And it may be that broadly it's in the right place, but it needs some tweaking. Or it may be actually it's not in the right place. But I think we should have the confidence to be able to do that. I don't think that means necessarily that what happened to Henry Novak is a direct result of that. But clearly there is concern around these issues. And so why not? Let's examine it.
So there are going to be various different reviews already. We know that the police chiefs are reviewing that guidance. The government has said some of the language is wrong. There will of course be this review into what happened to Henry Novak. The police watchdog is looking at exactly what went wrong there. We know the conservatives are then calling for a separate independent rapid review to use the terminology. That would be something with a bit more meat content.
Minun näkökulmani on, että Yhdysvallan poliittinen hallitus on oikea osa katsomaan hallituksen toimintaa ja onnistumista, ja onnistumista, ja onnistumista, ja onnistumista, ja onnistumista,
Henriin kuolemista, joka on yksityiskohtaisempaa, joka myös käsittelee niitä asioita. En edes nyt usko, että tarvitaan toinen tutkimus. Luulen, että nämä kaksi asiaa on tarpeeksi. IOPC-tutkimuksen jälkeen voi olla, että siellä on huolimattomuuskysymyksiä. Voi myös olla, että siellä on kriminaalisia kysymyksiä. Tällä hetkellä huolimattomuuskysymykset ovat olleet tutkittuja, joten ne eivät
formal investigation, but that can change. I'm not saying it will, but it can. So I think that's enough. I don't think we need another formal inquiry. And just lastly, the family, and I've been talking to representatives of the family, who have been very clear they did not want this to blow up into an angry political row, and that is what has happened. But what they do want is a specific change in the law, and
around Sikh ceremonial knives. So as things stand, and you'll be more familiar with this than I am, but as things stand, I'm told section 47 of the 2019 piece of legislation exempts ceremonial knives from being classed as offensive weapons.
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Chapter 6: What do the family of Henry Nowak want from the legal system?
The need for a large, there's a debate even about whether or not the size of knife like that could be regarded as a ceremonial weapon. Well, you could kill someone with a small knife as well. I mean, obviously this is very rare. I don't know if there have been other cases in which a Sikh person has used their kirpan to stab someone or kill someone. It's very rare, but nevertheless I think it should be reviewed.
Danny, thank you very much indeed for coming in. It's been really good to talk about these sensitive issues in a really calm way and with the benefit of your many years of experience. Thank you. Thanks Laura.
And tomorrow morning on BBC One we'll continue to discuss this important and fraught issue with the Deputy Prime Minister David Lamme, who's also the Justice Secretary, so embedded in these issues. And Zia Youssef, the Reform spokesperson on Home Affairs, will join us in the studio too. That's bound to be a lively and important debate. So I look forward to seeing you on the box then and tomorrow afternoon on Sunday's Newscast. Goodbye. Newscast. Newscast from the BBC.
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Ja hoi! Elämyksiä näkyvissä! Merimuseoita ja satoja muita elämyksiä. Hyödynnä kesän paras tarjous ja hanki museokortti etuhintaan vain 73 euroa. Matkalla elämyksiin. Museokortti.
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