Lulu Garcia Navarro

Non-bros, yes.

Non-bros, yeah.

But productivity people or just people who are interested in economics and say, actually, the foundation of the American experiment, the foundation of our –

uniqueness and our power economically comes from what de Tocqueville saw back then, which is this idea of always being more perfect, a more perfect union, that we can improve ourselves and make ourselves better and that in work we find joy and we can find this kind of miracle economic experiment.

And that Europe is stagnant and that, you know, is maybe happier than us, but certainly not as productive.

Yeah.

And, you know, we've been talking about sort of people go to Yale, people who are in demanding perhaps office jobs.

But of course, there's the structural inequality that comes from American society where people are having to work two or three jobs just to make ends meet, plus raising families, et cetera, et cetera.

And I guess that feeds into the lack of a social safety net and all the other things that you see in other places where the same holds true no matter where you fall on the income scale, right?

It goes back to where we started our conversation around the eudaimonic sense of like, how do you become happy and how do you find meaning?

Exactly.

Laurie Santos, thank you so much.

I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Thanks so much for having me on the show.

That's Dr. Laurie Santos.

Her podcast is called The Happiness Lab.

This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly.

It was edited by Paola Newdorf, mixing by Sophia Landman.

Original music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano.

Photography by Philip Montgomery.