M. Gessen

I feel like maybe you've thought about this for a minute.

Well, staying with this theme of vengeance for a second, no, I mean, you alluded to your experience in the state of New York.

And I think, if I understand it correctly, in your mother's case, the families of the people who died were instrumental in preventing your mother's release for many years.

Is that correct?

I've never visited him in prison.

And to be fair to my cousin, at a certain point, he changed his mind about talking to me when he realized that I didn't believe that he was innocent.

But during the months that we were talking, I tried to get permission to visit him.

One might get the, I think, mistaken impression that you're advocating for sort of letting sleeping dogs lie or leaving things behind because, you know, everybody just does terrible things and you get past them.

But I suspect it's a little more complicated than that.

And, you know, when I was working on the podcast, you really kind of woke me up at a certain point because I was so focused on what Alan had done.

and you really helped me refocus on what happens after, right?

So what does happen after?

Your mother was released in 2019, right?

What kind of work did you have to do to have a relationship with your mother?

And your father, he died in 2009, right?

Yes.

How do you think about your relationship with him now?

You've sort of teased this imaginary sixth episode of my five-episode podcast.

And this is where I think I hand it over to you.

I'm a little nervous because I know you're going to challenge the ultimatum that ends the series.