M. Gessen

And again, for people who...

Haven't listened to it.

There's a long journey that I go on in the series, but in the end, I write my cousin an email saying, look, if you want to reenter the family, you're going to have to fess up to what you did, which he continues to deny.

And I gather you think that's wrong, right?

Well, the honest answer is I don't know.

But as I listen to you talk, I think, you know, that's all very beautiful, but... It's so annoying.

No, I don't think it's annoying at all.

I think it's very challenging.

And...

And I want to parse out a couple of things.

So when you talk about somebody being treated with respect in order to treat you with respect, I think it's not so much a question of respect as trust.

This is somebody who lies habitually and who...

who lied repeatedly when he took his child without the child's mother's permission, and then he did it again.

And then he pretended to enter into a custody agreement with her while he was also taking out a hit on her.

And now he is lying that he was set up by the FBI.

And I just want to acknowledge your point about an active appeal, but I also think it's a decision one makes, right?

One who's going to get out in a few years could say, you know, instead of trying to pursue an appeal that at best will get six months off my sentence, maybe I will pursue...

So it is very hard for me to imagine what happens when there's no trust.

But of course, what you said about respect also holds for trust.

If you don't extend trust to somebody, they're not very likely to be able to earn your trust.