Malcolm Gladwell

Sirens.

Sirens.

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Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, well, it's funny. You did an in-depth analysis of the case, which I just listened to last night. I did the same thing on my podcast, two episodes on the case. You're right, reaching different conclusions. Although I think there are lots of interesting... issues that you raise, it's a complicated case. I think we could start there. More complicated, I think, than people realize.

Yeah, well, it's funny. You did an in-depth analysis of the case, which I just listened to last night. I did the same thing on my podcast, two episodes on the case. You're right, reaching different conclusions. Although I think there are lots of interesting... issues that you raise, it's a complicated case. I think we could start there. More complicated, I think, than people realize.

Yeah, well, it's funny. You did an in-depth analysis of the case, which I just listened to last night. I did the same thing on my podcast, two episodes on the case. You're right, reaching different conclusions. Although I think there are lots of interesting... issues that you raise, it's a complicated case. I think we could start there. More complicated, I think, than people realize.

And complicated by the fact that, as you go into this in some detail in one of your episodes, that Floyd, at the time of his arrest, is not a well man. He's on fentanyl. His heart's lungs are full of fluidness. He's got, what is it, 75% blockage of his arteries to his heart. So it's complicated. And in difficult cases, you know that legal axiom, difficult cases make bad law.

And complicated by the fact that, as you go into this in some detail in one of your episodes, that Floyd, at the time of his arrest, is not a well man. He's on fentanyl. His heart's lungs are full of fluidness. He's got, what is it, 75% blockage of his arteries to his heart. So it's complicated. And in difficult cases, you know that legal axiom, difficult cases make bad law.

And complicated by the fact that, as you go into this in some detail in one of your episodes, that Floyd, at the time of his arrest, is not a well man. He's on fentanyl. His heart's lungs are full of fluidness. He's got, what is it, 75% blockage of his arteries to his heart. So it's complicated. And in difficult cases, you know that legal axiom, difficult cases make bad law.

We're in a difficult case here. My big issue with your analysis is... I think when you look at the autopsy results and you see that George Floyd was a very sick man before his arrest, he's vulnerable, that supports the argument against Chauvin. It doesn't undermine it.

We're in a difficult case here. My big issue with your analysis is... I think when you look at the autopsy results and you see that George Floyd was a very sick man before his arrest, he's vulnerable, that supports the argument against Chauvin. It doesn't undermine it.

We're in a difficult case here. My big issue with your analysis is... I think when you look at the autopsy results and you see that George Floyd was a very sick man before his arrest, he's vulnerable, that supports the argument against Chauvin. It doesn't undermine it.

The second thing I would say, and this bears in this as well, is that I'm much more focused on Thomas Lane, who is the first of the police officers on the scene, And Thomas Lane throughout the entire incident is constantly telling Derek Chauvin to get off Floyd, that Floyd is really not well, that he's having difficulty breathing.

The second thing I would say, and this bears in this as well, is that I'm much more focused on Thomas Lane, who is the first of the police officers on the scene, And Thomas Lane throughout the entire incident is constantly telling Derek Chauvin to get off Floyd, that Floyd is really not well, that he's having difficulty breathing.

The second thing I would say, and this bears in this as well, is that I'm much more focused on Thomas Lane, who is the first of the police officers on the scene, And Thomas Lane throughout the entire incident is constantly telling Derek Chauvin to get off Floyd, that Floyd is really not well, that he's having difficulty breathing.

And Lane is the one who brings up excited delirium, which you bring up as you see that as that. I think that's, there's where you and I agree. I think that's why he dies. He dies because of some combination of his drug use, his preexisting conditions, and the fact that he's in a position where he's in respiratory distress because he's prone, right? He's got weight on his...