Marc J. Dunkelman

I think that 20, 30 years from now, we will have completely rebuilt some sort of governing mechanism that makes it possible for us to do things.

I don't know exactly how it's going to happen, but I feel pretty confident.

People aren't happy with this.

They're not going to be happy with what we've got now.

And we will figure out a series of ways organically through reforms.

Ideas are popping, like the fact that Ezra and Derek's book did well, and Yoni Applebaum has a book, and Jen Palka has a book, and Nick Bagley's coming out.

There's lots of literature coming out.

The books will save us.

I think mission is a huge part of it.

I also think, to the point you made earlier, lots of people graduate from college and imagine that they're going to go into public service, take a job at one of these agencies, and do great things.

I think that if you had...

gone to engineering school in the 1940s and gotten a job as a Moses man, uh, inside, you know, the Triborough bridge and tunnel authority in New York and like spent years working for Bob Moses, who was imperious as a boss, but like gave you a great deal of, you know, freedom to design parks and like you could, and your retirement, like you probably wouldn't have made as much if you'd gone to a

private engineering firm, but you could show your grandchildren, like I built that playground or I, you know, designed that bridge or what, like, like that would have been very satisfying.

I think that people today who go into public service and go work at a, what seems like a very important bureaucracy spend their days frightened.

They're frightened that they're going to get their boss in trouble.

They're frightened that they're going to get, you know, their boss is going to yell that by an appropriator because they did something wrong or that they're going to

They're going to make a decision that's going to get them subject to a NEPA lawsuit or the right that the, that the, someone in the office of management and budget is going to screw or that they don't have real authority to make the changes that they want to do.

And they come out after a bunch of years and like, I was just pushing paper around.

Like I wasn't really given the sort of a leash to make the positive change that I wanted to do.

I think like,