Mariana Mazzucato

Australia, again, is an interesting example because they had really interesting capability there.

within government with their innovation agency, CSIRO, and yet they gave this massive contract to McKinsey to do their climate strategy.

And it's absolutely about diffusing that responsibility, but also because of the culture we have, again, within government, where if they do make mistakes, unlike in the entrepreneurial ecosystems and VC and so on, we don't accept that.

But it's also in the private sector, right?

So we also talk in the book about the consultification of management, basically.

And there as well, you know, if you're going to be doing a merger or downsizing or a massive share buyback scheme, isn't it great if you have, you know, McKinsey told us to do it.

So also just not taking on, I mean, it's kind of cowardly, right?

Like you're not kind of owning your decisions.

I do think it's different in government.

I think that, you know, changing that culture, having more gov labs like they have in Chile, everything sounds better in Spanish.

It sounds like an awful lot.

I always say that in Italian, every time we have a... It's public sector reform.

It's just cuts, but it sounds nice.

It does sound great.

It's literally just cuts.

And so that idea that what we need is kind of a laboratory within government, but also between governments, I think is really important.

By the way, the head of procurement in NASA, Ernest Brackett, in the 60s with the Apollo program, not only did he help change the procurement policy of NASA, but he also said, we got to watch out.

There's too many consultants in these corridors.

And his exact quote was, if this continues, we will get captured by brochuremanship, which is kind of endearing because they didn't have PowerPoints at the time, right?

So now the idea that you're ruling by PowerPoint and that's basically all they know how to do.