Mariana Mazzucato

What are the missions that will help us achieve that?

And that's where then the healthy, tasty, sustainable school meals policy came from.

We worked with them on that also in Brazil.

We just actually put out a report about this with the World Food Program.

But what was interesting, again, was that then that required government to work in a different way.

Again, interministerially.

you know, catalyzing bottom-up experimentation, local manufacturing, but through also the redesign of the tools themselves.

The UK, which I don't think is a very good example right now.

I mean, there's lots of instability.

There's also been, you know, 14 years of austerity.

Some things that were really interesting, and this is why I look more at the organizational kind of examples, was government digital services, GDS, which basically began by government

back in the early 2000s saying, why does everyone have to go to, say, Google to download a white paper?

Why don't we have our own kind of digital platform?

They did what most governments do, outsourced it to a company called Serco, which is not a very innovative company at all, gets lots of government contracts.

They failed miserably.

And then people from the iPlayer team and the BBC

said, we'll do it.

So they went over to the cabinet office, set up government digital services, came up with this incredible digital platform called gov.uk, which won an international design award.

But what was interesting to me from that example was that the first thing they did was look out the window and said, with arrows,

pointing out the window, those are not clients and customers.