Mariana Mazzucato

Let's stop talking about people as clients and customers.

They're users with human rights and how they will access their driver's license, their passport, their voter registration has to enhance their like their souls and not make them want to die.

If you see the Ken Loach movies where, you know, people literally want to die when they're accessing their welfare payments because of just the complications around it.

And so making, you know, having kind of like a user-friendly government digital platform that changes the experience of a citizen with those rights that they have through the technology just requires a very different kind of mind shift.

And it became the coolest place to work.

So if you were taught...

you know, software engineer or even, you know, whatever, these hackers that Ada Colau wanted to hire, that's where they wanted to work.

To the point that lots of private companies were having a hard time finding the top talent because they all wanted to work in GDS.

So again, those are the examples I think we need to look for, not like which is the government that's doing everything perfectly.