Mariana Mazzucato

And so I think then what happens with the consultants is

It's not their fault that they're invited in.

I do think it's very problematic what they end up doing once they're in.

So there's huge conflicts of interest.

Well, the biggest conflict of interest being that they have no incentive really to make government better later because they wouldn't have no contracts.

It'd be like having a therapist your whole life.

That therapist is probably not very good.

But also they're often working on both sides of the street.

Right.

So there'll be, for example, consulting for, I don't know, a state owned enterprise like Escom in South Africa, as well as the Treasury.

Right.

Which should be regulating ESCOM.

Or in Australia, there was a famous case with PwC where they were consulting for a medical device company, as well as the regulators of the medical device companies.

Like, come on.

So that should just be illegal.

Right.

And again, you know, getting the right kind of regulation that makes sure that we don't have these kind of scams.

So what we also argued was, you know, the first thing is start investing back inside government so you don't need so much consulting.

But also when you do bring in the consultants, make sure the contracts actually embed learning within them and that you are also bringing in the right people.

You know, if you have an oncology strategy, of course, you should get the top doctors and consultants and cancer to advise.