Mariana Mazzucato

to the underlying economic dogma that has underpinned the way that we think about policy, government at different levels, that by design, not by coincidence, is reactive.

Yeah.

So my last book actually was called The Big Con.

So con for consulting.

And the subtitle was how we've weakened businesses, infantilized our governments and warped our economies basically due to this consultification.

I wouldn't blame the consultants.

I mean, I actually blame governments, right?

Like, why are you opening the door so wide to consultants?

And it's fine to have advisors and some consultants.

The problem is when they are actually doing the core tasks that government should do.

Again, test and trace.

during COVID was a core task.

And so I think it really stems from, I'd say, the 80s when we, you know, the kind of Reagan, Thatcher years, if you want.

It always goes back to Reagan.

Yeah, but actually in the UK, for example, it even increased more during the Labour government.

So it's not one party, but it did begin, I'd say, in the 80s with this kind of downsizing of governments, which then ironically cost them more.

Because as soon as you start downsizing without really strategically thinking what you need and what you don't need, of course, you should trim the fat.

There's no reason to have a bloated.

government structure.

But when it's done for ideological reasons and not strategic reasons, then ironically, then you end up not having those capabilities that you need as soon as you have a flood or Brexit or COVID.