Mark Halperin

And if you ask people on the left, who are the heroes of the last 10 years in

in making the left powerful and effective and confronting Trump, a lot of people left would say Adam Schiff or people like that.

And I'd say no.

You and I have talked about that they've contributed to the problem in a variety of ways.

Who are your heroes?

Who will history say from 2015, obviously not Hillary Clinton, from 2015 to 2025,

Who are the heroes of resisting Trump effectively, from your point of view?

I'm Andrew Sullivan.

And everyone you named, I'm not sure I put all of those on my list, but I understand the category.

No one in the Democratic Party, you've named people of the right who've stayed principled to conservative values and at times expressed disdain for Trump's rhetoric and style.

Is there no one?

And maybe the answer is no.

But is there no one, not a member of Congress, not a governor, not a Democratic intellectual,

I mean, I'll give you one.

Please, help me out.

Bill Galston, who has a column in the Wall Street Journal.

Maybe it's a kind of person.

Just more on this question of the failures to confront Trump effectively, not just to beat him in 2016 or beat him in 2024 in the election, but to check him.

Because people who feel about Trump as you do, about Donald Trump as you do, which is tens of millions of people,

look at him and say, this guy is, even if they don't think he's nuts, senile, they think, well, this guy's stupid.