Mark Halperin

I want to talk about the future, but first I want to sit with the past for a bit.

I think a lot about 2016 when Trump beat Clinton through Trump's reelection, that eight-year period, really back to 15.

when Trump became a serious candidate.

So I call it the 10 years of Trump.

And I think a lot about it on two tracks.

One is what Trump has done, having a movement at his disposal and winning two out of three elections.

But I think a lot about the resistance, the opposition.

And if you ask people on the left, who are the heroes of the last 10 years in

in making the left powerful and effective and confronting Trump, a lot of people left would say Adam Schiff or people like that.

And I'd say no.

You and I have talked about that they've contributed to the problem in a variety of ways.

Who are your heroes?

Who will history say from 2015, obviously not Hillary Clinton, from 2015 to 2025,

Who are the heroes of resisting Trump effectively, from your point of view?

I'm Andrew Sullivan.

And everyone you named, I'm not sure I put all of those on my list, but I understand the category.

No one in the Democratic Party, you've named people of the right who've stayed principled to conservative values and at times expressed disdain for Trump's rhetoric and style.

Is there no one?

And maybe the answer is no.

But is there no one, not a member of Congress, not a governor, not a Democratic intellectual,