Mary Helen Immordino-Yang

really fundamentally changed the way she oriented herself towards school and the learning process.

She's now about to start a PhD.

You know, I think she really reengaged with the opportunities school provided to learn for her own learning rather than for the metrics and achievement goals that other people set for her.

And what she taught me, which was really eye-opening, is really difficult, the real struggle academically,

in education happens when the teachers step back and even you're not taking five APs with somebody else coming in and telling you this is due on this day and this is due on this day and this is what an A is and this is what a C is and here's the rubric.

When the teachers instead set out the opportunity and the kids need to decide for themselves what they're studying and why and how and whether they're done and what they've learned and what other people are learning and get feedback on that.

That is where the hard work actually is.

And what she told me is that without grades, without these formalized assignments and due dates, it was the hardest academic learning she's ever done.

And it was fundamental to the way in which she now understands her own role in the scholarly world.

Thank you for having me.

It's a true pleasure.

Thank you.