Masayuki Mochizuki

I'd love you to walk me through both your wins.

First, 1994.

Give me the who, what, when, where, why of that tournament win.

Your second one was in 2023.

That's an amazingly long stretch to be at the peak of your game.

What was the difference between Frank Frigo in 1994 and Frank Frigo in 2023?

What would you say are the characteristics of a good backgammon player, including perhaps some characteristics that might surprise people?

Have you seen examples where someone just kind of becomes a more rounded person, a rounded thinker, by playing games, whether it's backgammon or something else?

I had been told that Frank Frigo had put his backgammon obsession to good use in the analytics firm he founded and ran.

When you say you applied it to football, what kinds of scenarios or with what kind of goals in mind?

And so how much is your model or versions of your model used in the NFL today?

Let me back up and make sure I understand.

For a Philadelphia Eagles fan, let's say, or a Kansas City Chiefs fan, their Super Bowl victories over the past several years, you're saying, are derived in some part from the application of backgammon theory?

Coming up after the break, how did that modeling happen?

And just how wild was the backgammon scene in the 1970s and 80s?

I'm Stephen Dubner.

This is Freakonomics Radio.

We will be right back.

Backgammon is the best one of all the games.

You could also say it's a game of economics, but then economics is also kind of life.