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Freakonomics Radio

677. Can Backgammon Save Us from Ourselves?

12 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What makes backgammon a compelling game for players?

6.275 - 11.882 Masayuki Mochizuki

There is an ancient board game that you can learn in 15 minutes and then think about for the rest of your life.

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12.683 - 20.333 Frank Frigo

I haven't met a human being yet that plays Backgammon that the game doesn't get under their skin. That game will get to you.

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20.714 - 25.079 Masayuki Mochizuki

Backgammon has had a few heydays in modern history, especially among gamblers.

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25.92 - 34.071 Bob Wachtel

She paid me in drugs and a Gucci sweater that her friends had boosted from Verdera Drive.

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34.051 - 37.575 Masayuki Mochizuki

NFL teams have used backgammon theory to win the Super Bowl.

38.236 - 41.9 Frank Frigo

They're risk averse. At least they used to be before we came onto the scene.

41.96 - 46.104 Masayuki Mochizuki

And now backgammon is having a whole new renaissance.

46.124 - 51.17 Remington Davenport

People want in-person experiences. They want to get off dating apps. They want to make new friends.

51.69 - 66.37 Masayuki Mochizuki

Today on Freakonomics Radio, we continue our occasional series on games with a simple question. Can backgammon save us from ourselves? Okay, the dice are yours.

Chapter 2: How has backgammon influenced NFL team strategies?

182.99 - 198.507 Masayuki Mochizuki

If you want to just play, great. If you want to teach and talk while we play, I'm happy to play for money. I don't expect you to play for free. No, it's fine. We can play for free. But I mean, I know that's how you make your living. So I don't want to ask you to work for me.

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Chapter 3: What is the current renaissance of backgammon about?

198.527 - 204.093 Masayuki Mochizuki

I have $500 in my pocket. I'm not planning to leave with it.

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204.113 - 206.256 Bob Wachtel

$500 lasts like three minutes, but it's okay.

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209.559 - 210.06

I'm joking.

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215.069 - 222.84 Masayuki Mochizuki

Ooh, thank you.

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230.53 - 231.832

Nice roll.

234.796 - 239.102 Masayuki Mochizuki

Come on. Things changed very fast there.

239.122 - 243.388 Bob Wachtel

Now it's an even game. Yeah. If you hit, I'm dead.

247.52 - 276.7 Masayuki Mochizuki

52. This is very scary. No, don't be scared. No, I am scared. Okay. This is going to be a shot anyway, so I got to hit deuce. So this is the roll. If I roll a four, I'm going to win. If I don't roll a four, I'm probably going to lose. You roll in the middle. Purgatory. That's okay. All right. All right.

288.037 - 300.943 Bob Wachtel

Backman is not a game that you decide the strategy. All you can do is you follow the dice's advice, you know? You're not going to against the dice. The game plan that you had in your mind that you want to hit, that's long gone.

Chapter 4: Who are the top players in the backgammon community?

465.053 - 476.854 Frank Frigo

I travel to tournaments. I teach. I lecture. I did have an analytics company for about 13 years, and I still do some consulting in sports betting and sports analytics.

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476.834 - 482.684 Masayuki Mochizuki

Of all the games ever invented and ever played, is Backgammon your favorite game?

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483.285 - 505.826 Frank Frigo

I haven't played all of them for sure, but I would argue it's the greatest game. It has all the elements of complexity. The pace is wonderful. It's designed as a gambling game. It's a fantastic mind sport. The game is played at amazing locations around the world. It's got a beautiful aesthetic. If you come to one of our tournaments, you will see the most beautiful custom made backgammon boards.

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505.866 - 517.033 Frank Frigo

And there's something about the sound, the touch, the feel that adds to the whole experience. I think it's, yeah, I think it's the greatest game out there.

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517.013 - 526.588 Masayuki Mochizuki

If you were to call backgammon an industry, I'm not sure whether you would use that word or a sector. How do you think about the size of it?

527.309 - 549.282 Frank Frigo

I've heard something like 300 million people play globally in some countries where it has a long, deep history. You see backgammon or tavla or sheshbesh, however they want to call it in particular culture, is played everywhere. So what I see, even in the United States, is that there's multiple tiers. There's the social component of it. Then there's the casual tournament player.

549.322 - 553.569 Frank Frigo

Then you have the more serious tournament player. There's a big spectrum.

554.05 - 559.398 Masayuki Mochizuki

For someone who doesn't know the game, just explain it as briefly as you can, the basic setup and goal.

559.738 - 580.433 Frank Frigo

Okay, so... Each site has 15 checkers in a particular starting arrangement, and the game is essentially a race. Your pieces or your stones, as they would have called it way back in the day, you're trying to get them around the board and into your home board. There's four quadrants. You try to get those checkers into your home board and bear them off as quickly as possible.

Chapter 5: What are the basic rules and objectives of backgammon?

2502.307 - 2522.962 Masayuki Mochizuki

case study for his new AI algorithm, but Gammon was such a perfect environment for that because it's a multi-dimensional game where all these dimensions interact with each other because there's so many trade-offs and the variables are entangled, yet it's still a small enough universe that you can just reproduce data as much as you want. You can simulate the games.

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2523.723 - 2546.455 Masayuki Mochizuki

And it worked exceptionally well. And when you say it worked, that means that in any given moment in any game, there is an optimal move, essentially, correct? Let me explain a little bit how these AI algorithms work. You have, let's call it a play agent. That's the agent making the moves. And then you have a learner. We call it the value function in machine learning.

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2546.435 - 2562.454 Masayuki Mochizuki

So you're training your value function as a function of the results that the play agent decisions are making. Basically, it's a self-learning algorithm. The best move is simply the move that has the higher value in the value equation.

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2562.674 - 2588.95 Masayuki Mochizuki

Because we have the computer engines, the neural nets that more or less solve the game, the level at the top is so high nowadays that it's much more a game of not making mistakes. Does that take some of the fun out of it? I don't think so. If you are a really high level player, what is your motivation? For me, it's this mastery achievement thing. I'm not playing against you.

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2589.03 - 2613.786 Masayuki Mochizuki

I'm playing against myself. Here's how Bob Wachtell described it in his book, The Backgammon Chronicles, A Pro's Adventure on Tour, Volume One. Backgammon has evolved from a model like that of soccer, basketball, or tennis, he wrote, where it is the fantastic inspired shot that will be the object of awe for years to come.

2613.766 - 2636.953 Masayuki Mochizuki

to a sport like gymnastics or ice skating or diving, where the entire goal is to perform a flawless routine, a perfect 10, i.e. a zero error rating. I went back to Wachtell to talk about this evolution. You know, when we started this conversation, you talked about the 70s and 80s as this golden era of backgammon.

2636.973 - 2659.399 Masayuki Mochizuki

There was a lot of action and a lot of excitement, and the play was starting to get a lot better. But how would you compare the current era? I mean, it must feel very, you know— Tame? Yeah. How do you feel or how do you describe the current era where there is a lot of competition, a lot of tournament play? I assume there's a lot less of the kind of gambling action that you're describing here.

2659.497 - 2685.876 Bob Wachtel

Yeah, right. It's much more normalized. Is it boring? Well, I mean, it's not nearly as exciting, I would say that. I think it is undergoing a minor renaissance. I don't think it could ever reach the manic levels of the 70s, because the whole Playboy lifestyle was what got people engaged then, and they were all sort of buying into this vision of the good life.

2685.923 - 2692.37 Bob Wachtel

which people are a lot more cynical now and aware of the pratfalls and pitfalls they can encounter.

Chapter 6: How does the doubling cube impact backgammon gameplay?

2753.674 - 2772.976 Masayuki Mochizuki

That's Mark Olson again. One is the rise of online backgammon with Backgammon Galaxy and other backgammon apps on the phone. And the other thing is the rise of the social clubs all across the United States right now hosting these incredible social events where people come just to play backgammon. I think it's amazing. It's something we haven't seen before.

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2773.356 - 2780.224 Masayuki Mochizuki

I don't know how big it can be, but it's very exciting, especially New York City Backgammon Club. Remington Davenport is doing a great job.

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2780.93 - 2788.06 Remington Davenport

Hi, it's Remy. Remy, hi. Hi. How are you? I'm doing so well, thank you. How are you doing?

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2788.08 - 2790.023 Masayuki Mochizuki

I'm dying to know why you're doing so well.

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2790.063 - 2813.414 Remington Davenport

I mean, I'm very happy about it, but... I just had like an amazing weekend. I treated myself to a present. It was a backgammon purse and I've been eyeing it for so long. You can like open it and it's a full board and it comes with the pieces and... Oh, and I got my backgammon table delivered that I designed and... So this was just like a very big backgammon girl weekend.

2813.815 - 2815.577 Masayuki Mochizuki

So how did you first get into the game?

2816.458 - 2838.426 Remington Davenport

My parents taught me how to play. I never really wanted to play with them. I had a group of six girlfriends in middle school, and we played backgammon every weekend. We were very competitive over everything and nothing. When we played backgammon, we were very physically abusive. We would flip the boards and throw dice at each other. We were so crazy.

2838.487 - 2850.104 Remington Davenport

We would just like look for anything to compete over. But it was all in like good fun. But now I'm like, good sportsmanship and good etiquette is the only thing I believe in. But don't look at me when I was playing as a kid because I was a monster.

2850.164 - 2852.728 Masayuki Mochizuki

Were you playing for stakes, for money or anything?

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