Meghan, Duchess of Sussex

And I think most of us are risk averse to the idea of looking as though we failed at something.

At least for me, I can only speak for myself. At the beginning, I just liked making jam. All I liked to do was just make jam and preserves. And it went from, okay, I'm going to share this jam with lots of friends and family to people really like it. And it brings me joy. So maybe I can share it more broadly.

But even then, I was in so much fear of failure or opinion that I wasn't thinking big enough at first. Mm-hmm. At the onset, I thought, okay, well, I know what I can do.

I'm going to go online and I can get what's called a cottage license, which you can get in the state of California, which means if you cook something in your home, you can sell it up to a certain amount at a farmer's market or somewhere small. And I thought, okay, well, that's great. I'll get my cottage license. And I applied for one and thought, I'll just do small batch jam from home.

And I had to step back and look at what I was doing and saying, am I playing small because I want to play small? Or am I setting in motion playing small because I'm scared? And, you know, Oprah, who I know is a mentor and friend to you, same for me. She was the one that said, there are tons of things you could put your name on.

But for you and how you like to show up for people, once you figure out how to encapsulate your essence... Then you'll know.

And it was so clear, even as I'm listening to your story, the essence of who you are was about feeling seen, knowing that you're enough, knowing that you're beautiful, despite what anybody would say, and putting that essence in a product that could be shared with millions of people. Yes.

I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

Okay. So you've created this product, this magical concealer, and you're ready to share it with the world, but no one is paying attention.

Like not love bombing, product bombing. Product bombing. So much product. Over and over. But also, sorry, but also like you don't have the funds to just be sending out endless product that it could possibly just end up in someone's, they're going to give it to a friend or they're not going to even open it.

That is, again, such a leap of faith and an investment because you don't know the ROI at that point.

Oh, Jamie. Yeah. As you're talking about all these no's for me, it's what was I doing before I was acting? Oh, my gosh. Oh, please. I heard no all the time, especially because I wasn't cookie cutter for a specific type. And at the start of my auditioning career, you were either the black girl or the white girl or the Latina girl. Everything was typecast.

Any female founder or founder at all will tell you these moments happen where it feels like absolutely everything is on the line. You feel as though whatever you and your team have been working towards, somehow it's all led you to this one point in time, whether it's a big interview or a high-pressure investor meeting. And I will tell you firsthand the stress, it's palpable.

So being mixed, I could get into a lot of rooms. That meant as a numbers game, I heard no even more.

It's horrible. Horrible. I love that he did it personally. It's not like breaking up in a Post-it note. Right. But, oh, man, after three years.

But what do you do when, despite giving it your all, it still doesn't work out? When you still get a no. A crushing no. It's a lot to process. It makes you question whether chasing your dream is even what you're meant to do. But here's the thing. This is precisely the moment that you have to dig deep. You have to use every tool you've got and get right back up.

Like he's wrong. Oh, that's huge. And I think that's also a good reminder of in those moments where... The environment, the pitch, the opportunity feels so much bigger than we are. The building itself, the enormous elevator doors. Don't try to book the part. Just try to book the room. Meaning... There's always going to be a room full of people, and especially in business, as you're pitching.

Some of those people from Sephora will probably end up at Ulta, and some of the Ulta people end up at a hedge fund, and some of those private equity people end up at that VC company. And you might not be right in that exact moment for that part, for that pitch, if we're making the analogy. But one of those people in the room will likely remember you.

And when your journey takes you somewhere else and your paths cross, you may have not booked that part. You may have not gotten that exact pitch. But you've booked something in that room so that they've remembered you, your essence, your product, what you can bring to the table. And to try to see those opportunities even when there's a no.

The no is a no for right now. Yeah. Or it's a not yet, but it could still be with one of those people who's present to him saying that to you.

Every single no turned into a yes. This is, you know, some people will be super intentional about creating their vision board. Great. That is you putting your vision board in action. Yes.

Every single time that you made a choice to send an email, to follow up, to continue believing and putting those beliefs not just on a board, not just in your head, to putting them in words, in action, putting pen to paper as though it is true. Yes. I think that's really powerful for people to see that it's not something that you just look at. It is putting the do's behind the say's.

You're saying it, but you're doing something actively to signal to the universe or whatever it is that you believe in, this is in motion. Maybe not as fast as I'd like it to be, but this is coming. This is coming and I'm so excited. And then, perfect timing to fast forward to how you ended up on QVC. Oh my goodness.

My guest today has faced her fair share of those moments. And oh my goodness, has she come out even stronger every single time.

Just paint the picture for us of this epic QVC moment in 2010.

Go ahead. But wait, kids, there's more.

Oh, man.

And eventually, she did get that yes. Jamie Kern Lima went from being a waitress at Denny's to the founder of the billion-dollar makeup line, It Cosmetics. Her ability to believe in herself despite rejection, it's her superpower. Since selling It Cosmetics, Jamie has become a best-selling author, invested in over a dozen businesses, and has appeared as a guest shark on Shark Tank.

That is, I mean, if you were a betting woman and you're in Vegas or something, the odds on that are so bad. Yes. To say, but again, you were in such deep faith. You wanted it. You had the vision of being there on QVC. You have a 10-minute shot. You have 6,000 units of product that you have to go and pay for, invest in, put that on a credit card, and let's hope we can pay that off.

And now you have 6,000 units of a product that you don't know if you can sell in 10 minutes.

Like every time, over time, right? But you raised such a good point because I think especially when... When there are lots of opinions and you're grappling and you're trying to figure it out, it's like, when do you trust your gut or when do you trust the advice? And especially if you enlist someone to be an advisor and at what point do you have to

Sit there, get quiet with yourself, and be able to confidently look at them and say, that may be what works, but that's not what's going to work for me.

But when I met her, I didn't know any of that. I knew none of that. I just knew her as Jamie, my new neighbor. And she soon became my rocking chair friend. You know, the kind of person where you can just go and sit in your sweats and cozies, no makeup on and just chat for hours. Her passion is absolutely contagious and uplifting.

Oh, my gosh.

And I'm like, oh my gosh. What did you guys do that night to celebrate?

And sold for $1.2 billion cash. I mean, like just one legendary acquisition.

Please stop sending us products.

And I have no doubt that you're going to walk away from this conversation feeling energized and inspired. Let's go. Hi. Hi. Oh my gosh.

For me, I'm like, just vindication.

Big mistake. Right? That's what I wanted to say to him. Huge.

And I was like, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. From all of those no's, from everything that you went through, from just getting genuinely, deeply being in perseverance to the point that we started with talking about this idea of planting a seed.

And I know in this conversation how many seeds you've planted for people with how much you've been generous to share about what that feels like in the journey and on the journey that is taking you to this place where...

Now, not just from what you can do as an entrepreneur, but what you've been able to do for women and for people to know their worth, to write these bestselling books that have changed people's lives. And that person that was there as a waitress at Denny's or as a news anchor on local news. That's that same person in there who wants to feel seen.

And as a result of that, you've been able to create the most illustrious career where not just as a businesswoman, but as a person, you let so many people feel seen. And it just is the most beautiful gift that I think you've been able to give and to be so candid in your journey that makes the gift even more profound. Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Thank you.

Next week, I'm talking to a founder who makes instant drinks that are not only healthy.

See you then.

Oh, Jamie. I mean, I feel like we haven't talked about our blood type, but yours is probably an A positive like mine because I was like, even my blood is overachieving. It is.

Oh, my God. Yeah. That's my running joke. I was like, even my blood type. A positive, A plus, A plus. Oh, my gosh. Thank you for doing this. It's been a full week. But here we are. You good? Yes. Are you okay? Yeah. Well, you saw my text yesterday. So there's a lot going on. But that's for our rocking cheers. This is our pseudo rocking cheers.

And same vibe. So let's start with that moment of how it all began.

Well, and also just in that, as you talk about feeling seen, I often think about with any of those moments, those human moments, those moments where you're so very seen. Maybe you're not seen as like who you are deep on the inside in that moment. It's a producer trying to have your back. But how did you feel?

Faith comes up a lot in every single one of these conversations with any female founder I've spoken to. Every woman talks about faith, whether in herself, in God, in something higher, in a calling, in a purpose. It is so important.

profound to me that that is the commonality in any of these sectors and any of these journeys and anyone, whether they've IPO'd or they're on their rise, everyone has this deep, deep faith. And I think there's something about that that's been revelatory for me to be reminded of, because even as you're telling the story about sitting there on the news desk,

And you have someone in your ear saying this thing to you, but you sort of focus on the thing in front of you, right? You can apply that to so many different things in the world. For me, I think, oh, wow, they're there in your ear, but it's still just noise. You have to stay focused. You have to stay focused on what's ahead and also say in that...

what could feel like a breakdown could instead be a breakthrough. And for you, it was your breakthrough.

When you were bringing that to market, that was so... Now it might seem more normalized and people might be listening like, well, yeah, of course. It was not an of course. It was a revolutionary way to think about makeup and beauty at the time. I mean, that would have been when I was... an auditioning actor, auditioning for commercials.

And I remember my commercial agent could not submit me for beauty or skincare ads because I had freckles. They're like, no, no, no, no. It's just never gonna work because freckles aren't a sign of beauty. It was, you couldn't see yourself reflected there. So back to your point of being seen. Yes.

You said, I want women to feel seen and to not feel as though I'm here to fix what you may have always seen as a flaw. No, I'm here to enhance what I see in you, which is your beauty. Yes. yes, yes.

I mean, that, Jamie, but that is so hard for people to imagine. That is such a tremendous leap of faith, and that's why we're talking about faith. But that is... Can you imagine saying, no, we're all in? All in. Not just that, and that's listening to that whisper, that gut, that knowing that says, we have reason to believe.

without anything around us that should tell us that should be the case, that we can do this.

We believe it so deeply.

Not the no's, the knowing. Exactly. Exactly. You know, like for me, starting a company, it's newer, surrounded by very, very savvy businesswomen friends. And even when you and I had just become friends and I was talking to you about business, I I remember you said to me, okay, so what's the timeline? I said, oh, yeah, like a couple months from now. You're like, that's too soon.

And I didn't want to hear that. But you're right. You planted a seed that became a knowing for me. And it gave me the grace to have the space to take my time until it was right. To really like not be concerned about anything. someone else's urgency or the media's urgency or speculation's urgency somehow becoming my urgency. to wait until you're ready.

Even if I didn't want to hear it, it was the thing that I needed to hear.

They create the illusion. The illusion of here's the finished product and look at how great it is. It's just tied up with the bow and the bow is perfect as opposed to... The process is not perfect. Yes, it is not. The process can be painful. Yeah. And it can be... riddled with things that don't just make you question your business. They make you question yourself. Yes.

As the co-founder of a fully remote company, I have the benefit of being able to hire people who live all over the country. But that candidate search can be overwhelming. That's where LinkedIn Jobs comes to the rescue. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get high-quality candidates all in one place.

And that's the piece that feels completely insurmountable. You're like, how am I going to do that or that? You talk yourself out of it before you even have an opportunity to hear what the vision or the idea could be. You've already talked yourself out of it, but you talked yourself into it before you knew what the vision or the actual idea could be.

And so to have that kind of turnaround within two years from, I think, what was it? You took $5,000 of savings and that's what you put into your R&D to try to figure out, okay, there could be something here. And then in that first year, in year one, What was it, $4 million in profits in year one?

But that is so hard to understand because I genuinely believe I would love to be able to adopt that level of a mindset where, you know, as you're talking about even for a lot of people not being able to buy into the hope or the promise of something more for themselves and financial freedom. I think so many women especially were taught to not even talk about money.

And there's lots of guilt mentality surrounding. There is. having a lot. And then at the same time, there's a scarcity mindset that it's easy to attach to of like, I'll never have enough. And I think if you're able to in your 20s with all the noise that surrounds that you were just able to get so quiet and clear, it's profound.

If you're a small business owner, you know that the person tasked with hiring for your company is probably also doing a million other things. Ideally, all their time and attention would be spent composing the perfect job description, reading hundreds of cover letters or flying candidates out for intensive in-person interviews. But come on, that is not real life.

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That's linkedin.com slash female founder to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. When I'm running around from work meetings to soccer games to dinner parties, I'm lucky if I remember to even wash my hair, let alone really truly care for it. That's why my party trick is Nutrafol.

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I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights and the lessons learned and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Listen, over the course of our lives, we're told all sorts of things that we just sort of accept as the way things are.

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So, random question. Yes. But I'm super curious. As you think... This is not on my papers of things to ask you. I just really want to know. Oh, good. I love those. Because I think when I think about people who manifest and you're so spiritually inclined, are you superstitious? Are there certain colors you wear? You're always in happy colors. Maybe that's part of it. I'm very superstitious.

Maybe I need to wear less white because You just wear these happy colors and then it makes people smile immediately when they see you. And then it feels like this joyful energy radiates. And then perhaps that creates a ripple effect because it just feels good. playful at the same time as being serious as a businesswoman, but playful.

There's something about how magnetic it is to see how colorful you are when you enter a room just by dint of, I mean, the book in front of you is the same color as your shirt right now. It's really, really pretty, like pale chartreuse. But what are some of the things that you do that maybe you're conscious or not conscious? I feel like everything you do is probably very intentional.

be it from superstitions or colors or habits. What are those practices that are part of your day-to-day that might be surprising?

I love that so much.

Can you expand on that for people who don't know what that means?

Yep. Well, it wasn't until the 70s that women could even have a credit card line, a line of credit on a credit card without her husband saying yes.

Was it right? Late 70s, early 80s?

Oh, my God.

You'll hear common expressions like beauty is pain, business is war. I mean, you start to hear them so many times that at a certain point, you sadly start to believe them. But what if we could rewrite those narratives? What if there's another way? What if business isn't war and it's a playground? And our guest today, she's a true testament to that.

With your red backpack and a laminated photo of your bottom.

So you have all this, obviously the energetic piece is huge for you. And at the same time, you still have to have some sense of how to build a business or some sense of what to do. And to my understanding, most of that for you was to make your patent, a book that you found at Barnes and Nobles, and you figure that out and start to really be scrappy and piece it together.

How much of that do you think, if you're saying there weren't a lot of people that you could talk to, women at least, in this sector at the time... You know you have this idea. You think you're onto something.

You're trying to shop this idea even to just get it manufactured and people are saying no because they can't buy into the vision of it except for was it one manufacturer whose daughter or wife said there could be something here?

Mm-hmm.

So it goes from this $5,000 investment that you make in yourself and the scrappiness to still be aligned with, I know there's a there there. But then what moves the needle? You have the Neiman Marcus meeting. How many units are they buying? How do you go from, okay, you get one great meeting to you become what Spanx became so quickly, relatively speaking?

That's linkedin.com slash female founder to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. As the days get longer, my schedule seems to get fuller and fuller. And sometimes the nonstop plans and stress can do a number on my hair. If you can relate, give Nutrafol a try. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist-recommended hair growth supplement brand, trusted by over 1.5 million people.

She has always defied stereotypes and found a much more fun and creative way to go about building her brands.

I completely agree with that. I mean, I've, you know, I've invested in a lot of female founders and I'm really conscious, I know as you do too, but also you just mentor so many women and you want them to succeed to really, I'm not in the business of trying to dilute you. I'm in the business of trying to uplift you.

You want to be the person that they can call when they're having a quality control issue or they're worried about something or they just feel uncertain as we all do. And now I'm on the flip side of that going, wow, I have a partner. I was going to do it all by myself. Took a complete U-turn because I really believe in what Netflix and their CPG department are doing.

But it is a different experience than if you're doing it on your own. When you only have yourself to answer to, I think it's twofold. It can be incredibly liberating. It can be incredibly lonely.

What did that feel like for you at the beginning with Spanx? I mean... You were your own soundboard. Yeah.

Can I just ask on that? I remember reading or you maybe had told me that when you were younger, your dad would ask around the dinner table, what did you fail at this week? What did you fail at today? Meaning if you failed, you at least tried. You tried beautifully. And it doesn't matter if you failed.

When he started to advise on the business four times a year, was he asking those same kind of questions?

And she did. Sarah Blakely went from selling fax machines door to door to revolutionizing the shaper industry with a brand that I'm sure you've heard of, Spanx. She turned the $5,000 she saved up into a billion-dollar brand. And at the time, she became the youngest self-made female billionaire. But you know, she didn't stop there.

Wow, that's huge. Yeah. Huge. And you had equal parts of that pragmatism as well as the creative from your mom as an artist.

So you have both pieces where both sides of your brain are going, okay, what can I create? How can I dream in a bigger way? One of the books in front of you, Dream Big. But how do you do that as well as, and take risks and don't be afraid. Right. Right. I love that. I think everyone is so scared, especially as we get older. You're so scared of making a mistake. You're so scared of doing it wrong.

You're so scared of not getting everyone's approval. And I love equally that at the beginning of Spanx, you held that close because it becomes like Survey Monkey at the beginning of a business. Oh, forget it. You're like, what do you think? I was thinking it's no different. And I will say this to every woman in the world, every person in the world who's going to have a child.

If you have an idea of what you're going to name that baby... And you keep it so close to your heart until that baby is born and it's named. Don't ask anyone's opinion. No. Not dissimilar to naming your company, which also I think for you, I hope you know, you inspired Cassie Cassandra that we talked about with Kitsch. Yeah.

When I talked to her, she said, Sarah Blakely had said like things with a K-K-K sound like Kodak or Coca-Cola do really well. So I'm going to do Kitsch.

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She recently sold a majority stake of Spanx and decided to start something brand spanking new, a shoe line called Sneaks. What I love about Sarah is how she doesn't subscribe to the traditional ways of building a business. She genuinely follows her gut. She's a lot of fun along the way. She doesn't take it all too seriously, even though she is so dedicated to what she's building.

As though you needed to do anything else. You didn't need to do anything else. And I remember you were sitting here. This was a couple years ago. We were sitting here after polo and you said, I'm working on something else. I can't talk about it just yet, but I can't wait to share it with you when I have it. And I said, okay, you don't need to be working on something. I'm excited about it.

Cue sneaks. Okay, let's talk about it. How, how, what, when, where, why?

It's not the aspiration at all.

She just knows there might be a way to flip the script. There's just so much that all of us can learn from her and how she's done this. I'm excited to dive into it.

Well, it's so key for people who want to start their own thing to also hear that, that it's okay to pivot. Oh, yeah.

But also, it did. It did end up visually, as maybe you had sought out, but you were still solving for the same thing. I was. By the way, for me, when I started making my jam, I was all about my jam hats. People were like, what is she going on about? I was like, you know, like a really chic version of the little cloth thing that I tied around. Everything's going to have to have a jam hat.

I was like, why is she talking about jam hats? As it evolves, you go, well, we're not at the farmer's market and we're scaling to something that's much larger than this. And we're not going to have these little monogram pieces of cloth that sit on top of us. But it could be repurposed as a coaster. And wouldn't it be so cute as a hanky?

And I just think there's something so charming and darling about it. Okay, no. The vision for me was so clear. Right. That's another pivot where you go... okay, can you let go of that? Because ultimately, what are you solving for? Ultimately, you're solving for someone having a beautiful, sentimental, elevated experience as they start their day with breakfast.

That's what I was solving for ultimately. And I could dress that up in different ways that didn't include A jam hat. For you, what are you solving for? The comfort that you've been seeking for 20 plus years. So it doesn't actually matter how it manifests itself. It manifested itself. It manifested itself and I didn't get in its way. You didn't get in its way.

And then I'd look at my sneaker and I'd be like, yeah, I don't really want to wear you either. Yeah. A friend just said to me the other day when they were looking, they said, they were like, I just saw this picture I'd forgotten about when you were so pregnant with Archie. I mean, I gained 65 pounds with both pregnancies. Oh my God, you're so tiny.

And you're in these five inch, I always just wear my five inch pointy toed stilettos. They're like... You have the most enormous bump, and your tiny little ankles are bracing themselves in these high heels, but all of my weight was in the front. So you're just going, how on earth? How on earth? How on earth am I not just tipping, you know, face planting?

It's like I'm always clinging very closely to my husband. What? Please don't let me fall. Yeah. Yeah.

You are literally like, I feel like spirit is coming down. Well, also, and I'm wearing white. I mean, the whole thing. It's a bit dramatic. The whole thing. I'm moving. I'm moving. I can't. It's too distracting. Are you good? Is the family good?

Well, and by the way, it's a natural evolution. It has to happen that way. It has to evolve that way because women are becoming savvier, smarter. We're taking care of ourselves in a different way. It has to happen. And you're the person naturally who can do it because you've committed so many decades now of care for how women can show up, feel their best selves, and

And still look a certain way that they want to present. So you feel good and you look good, but you're not sacrificing your own care. Because at the end of the day, I mean, I remember my acupuncturist in the UK said to me, and it has always stayed with me, said, if the baby's crying, treat the mother. Wow. It all starts with us. Yeah. Good Lord, we have to take care of ourselves first.

And I think you've just really created such a beautiful and celebrated business model, not just because of the fiscal success you found, but because you've done it with such... acute, mindful intention that stems from care. You care about women. And that's so evident in everything that you've created.

And I guess now that you'll continue to create, which I can't even believe you're going to keep going.

Oh, thank you. You're amazing. I'm going to go change and put on something colorful for the rest of the day. Tell Harry I said hi. I sure will. Thanks, honey. Bye. Well, that's a wrap on Confessions of a Female Founder. I just want to say thank you guys so much for being so open to hearing all of these women's stories. I hope you felt as inspired as I have.

Thanks for your support as you heard my story too, little bits of it. It's just the beginning, but my goodness, it's been really great to be able to share it with you. Wishing you all the best and loads of success in whatever you're building today and every day.

Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Catherine Barnes and Oja Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Littles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vince Evans. Rachel Neal is our VP of new content and production.

And Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There's more Confessions of a Female Founder with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. Thanks so much for listening.

We'll see you next week.

Ah, for those that can't see us, my darling dog Mia is pawing her way into this podcast, literally.

We hope you enjoyed Confessions of a Female Founder with Megan. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do so is by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more incredible listeners like you discover the series. Thank you.

Oh my God. There's so much to talk about.

I don't know why I always forget that there are that many age. I mean, people forget. No, I always remember you have a lot of kids. She's got a lot of kids. But the amount of what you have created, evolved through, the level of what you have done while having this many children all at that age. I know. It's something that I think people often forget.

People forget that Lily is three and Archie's five. So you look at the past five, six years of my life, it's yes, with being pregnant or with a newborn or with a toddler and then another one. You can't even describe it. You can't. You have to live through it and that's it. Yes.

Oh my gosh, I'll send you some pictures. They are so grown.

That's when really we spent the most time together for the first time. You were here for that conference. Yes.

Oh, my gosh. And margaritas and guacamole can do that. They can do that. It was just so nice because you would think like, oh, great, let's connect. And then hours and hours later, I think you even changed your flight. I did. And we just had so much fun. One thing I do remember is all those years ago when you came and we were hanging out by the pool and chatting.

It is an origin story piece that comes up a lot for very successful entrepreneurs. And for you, you were talking about these Wayne Dyer tapes. Yes. That you would listen to, and I didn't know who Wayne Dyer was at the time, but do you want to start back? I mean, that's such an interesting part of your beginning to get to where you are. Yeah.

And Cassie, Cassandra Morales from Kitsch, she, when I knew her all those years back then, constantly listening to Tony Robbins over and over and over and over. Wow. So there's something to that.

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You know, for people who aren't familiar with Wayne Dyer, just as I wasn't when you had mentioned it to me, he really is inspirational, affirmational type of train your brain. Mindset. He was a psychologist who... Oh, I didn't know he was a psychologist.

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And it'd be like, what do you really want with your life? But that's amazing. I mean, and also it's amazing for several reasons. It's amazing because it speaks volumes to how you've ingrained the possibility of more and taking control over your thinking from such a young age, but that you were able to do it. Yes. Yeah.

So you think about most other teenagers when you have one, two, three, these larger than life traumas are happening at a young age and you double down on something that I think actually set the trajectory for your entire life.

Right. It was already in motion.

But I think for anyone who's listening, that's got to that's just has to be so inspiring on so many levels, because I think there's a misconception that you need to have. Go to Harvard Business School and have a lot of money and get all the best people behind you and get your, you know, cap table and have the best VC or private that you need so much to be able to move the needle.

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These are very friendly. These are very friendly waters. It's all going to be good.

I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. We're diving into the highs.

And no one's calling me. Oh, no. And the kind of advice that turns small ideas into billion-dollar businesses.

Okay.

And through it all, I'm building a business of my own and getting all sorts of practical advice along the way that I'm very excited to share with you. So join me for Confessions of a Female Founder from Lemonada Media, which by the way, is also female founded. Launching April 8th, wherever you get your podcasts. Let's do this, ladies. This is not Shark Tank. Think of this as Dolphin Tank. Yes.

It's interesting because you started your company first as a blog, which I didn't know. Yeah. So then it was really a means to connect in a way that was virtual, but to create community and then the evolution of brick and mortar. But how did you and Micah decide to do that first?

I used to work at BB with that sparkly BB shirt. It was that time.

I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Okay, real talk. Running a business is a lot.

Well, especially because you were doing hair at 11 is when you realize in Connecticut, there weren't a lot of people there that could do your hair, your texture of hair. So you started experimenting on your own. I can't imagine what that was like. It kind of reminds me of when I was at Northwestern and I moved into Kappa, our sorority there. I don't even think they made plug-in

Flat irons at the time, they couldn't, if they did, I didn't know where they were because I had the little stove with the flat iron that would go in, have a paper towel on the side. I mean, there's probably half the people listening to this going, what is she talking about? Or you'd pull it out, it would have the little scorch marks. And I remember most of the girls in the sorority...

Who were not black. I said, what's that smell? Is hair burning? And it was just what you would do to figure out how to grapple with this texture of hair. Were you using things like that back then or is that what you were doing in college?

But also, this is before, I mean, U11 in Connecticut, this is before the World Wide Web. Yeah. It's not like you were Googling different ways to do your hair and your hair texture. Where were you finding inspiration for that?

Is there an immigrant community there at all?

What did you think you were going to end up doing professionally?

Oh, wow. Wow.

Did you ever think that you would start your own business? Did you think you would have a chair at a salon? Was that the ultimate goal? Or did you always feel entrepreneurial in what you were really sort of striving for?

Building something new is a long road of making decisions in the dark and then holding this vision in your head when no one else can even see it yet. It can be slow. It can be scrappy. It can be exhausting. It It's a process. And there's no roadmap. There's no manual. And if you knew how hard it would get, you might hesitate to start at all.

This doesn't work for me anymore. Yeah. So you go to the L.A. salon. You obviously start working up in the ranks. And a lot of that, I think, feels like it's part of your journey as a colorist. But then at what point does it shift that you say, okay. I am going to have my own brick and mortar.

I am going to open a salon and a space because I find it really interesting to go from... You've had two entrepreneurial journeys, from that to then creating the brand and how different those experiences have been for you.

That's such a beautiful compliment. That's so sweet.

In what way? Yeah.

But that initial bravado, that initial going in like, I've got this.

And for today's guest, brick by brick is literal. Katie Lee is the co-owner of the hair salon Highbrow Hippie in Venice, California. She's also a go-to colorist for a lot of names you'd be familiar with. And she's recently launched a product line that sold out not once, but twice. Look, it's clear that Highbrow Hippie is on a serious roll.

The name Highbrow Hippie, which I love, we love. I know the origin, but for people who don't, can you share that?

We just knew. And also the alliteration is so good and it's a perfect barefoot, chic, all the things that you are. So I love that. And also to be working on something different

quietly yeah you know i had secured as ever as a name in 2022 and then as everything started to evolve last year and bringing in a partner the size that it was and it was just so interesting because you remember i said i like american revere as an umbrella yeah and then to be able to have verticals beneath it yeah maybe have the orchard really small

But when that's not feasible, suddenly it became this word salad. I didn't love that so much. I said, okay, well, let's go back to the thing that I've always loved. Let's use the name that I had protected for a reason that had been sort of under wraps. And then we were able to focus in the quiet and put our heads down and build on something that no one was sniffing around to even see about.

It was just really, really helpful to have that quiet period, which you would know after spending so many years working on something, building it. And the pivots that you have to take with it, look at you now. I mean, the name Highbrow Hippie is no longer just a blog and a hair salon. It's a product line, too.

You have a hair supplement and a hair serum that you just launched late last year, and it's already been named Best Hair Serum Best. by Oprah Daily.

How on earth did you go from getting your financing together, creating the business, having this incredible clientele, the most loyal people who've been with you from the beginning, from high profile to everything in between, to then saying in the midst of still being a startup in those first five years, we're going to start something else too.

And I wanted to talk to Katie, who's also a dear friend, about what it's like to continually iterate and build on your brand. Her business started as a blog. Then she opened a brick and mortar. And now she's selling products that people can't get enough of. Let's get into her story. There she is. Hi. Disregard the state of my hair right now. I'm so excited I'm seeing you next week.

Yeah, she did. I wish her a happy birthday. I will. And Julia, who's like championed you for so long, Julia Roberts.

For years. Because I remember for years. Because to go from what would be the natural and... perhaps more obvious choice is people would say, great, you have a hair salon, so you're going to make shampoo and conditioner. And that's what it's going to start with.

And that's what it will evolve into, which I would also guess from an investor standpoint, it might feel like a safer bet, even if it's really saturated in the market. So what was it like for you when you guys were really sort of creating this business plan and ideating on the idea of something that is not

perhaps most typical, but based on your own focus group from your clientele, you were able to really have a proof point and say, we know that there is a hole in the market for this. We can fulfill it in this way holistically. But that still feels like a gamble.

I don't know if it's shifted since last year, but 2% for just women from venture capital raise, and what is it, 0.34%, 0.3%. 3-5% for women of color. You're right. It is abysmal. It is a shockingly low number of investment that goes into Black female-owned companies and trade. Yeah.

I should have a baseball cap on, really. I mean, there's a lot going on, my friend. A lot indeed, but all good stuff. And even more of the reason that it's exciting to talk to other female founders right now about their journey, their experience, their All the twists and turns that come with the choice to be a female entrepreneur and especially one of color and what that means.

I know. I mean, you were here, what was that, a week or two afterwards you were here. And it was just, you were glowing. You won.

Yeah. And so much of that raise came from the fact that people feel so confident in their belief about you and your work ethic. And I think that's a piece that is such a common thread through how you show up in the salon, how you show up in those chats that you created. It's all about really just your ethos and, of course, having a really strong business partner as well.

What has it been like to have a friend that's your business partner?

So let's start when we first met. What year was that?

And to be really aligned in that. I mean, it's great that you know, well, one of our other really good friends, Vicky Tsai, I think has been a mentor for both of us, certainly in what she created with Tatcha from her parents' garage to also selling to Unilever for...

quite a hefty sum but the level of dedication work ethic and her thoughtfulness and her approach is what I think is so key but I remember very early on when I was talking about starting a business she had said to me okay well Meg you need a reverse engineer who do you want to sell to and

As opposed to just thinking, I'm going to create this thing and then we're going to see what's going to happen. And then, oh, I think they might be interested. No, let's reverse engineer five, 10 years from now. Who's going to buy this? And everything you do starts at the intention of what the ultimate goal is. So you're not task oriented, you're goal oriented.

And when you have that level of business savvy right out of the gate. You're looking at it through such a different lens. So let's imagine and assume when you sell.

Because you will. Yes. And it will be a great day of celebration. What would you do in your next chapter?

It's their favorite when they run out in their cars like, Katie!

It was very much 2020.

I know. That's okay. We're the kids. We're the kids.

I can't with you. That's so unfair because we have nine minutes and all I want to do is ask about – is it the – yes? It is, isn't it? It is! Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, this is very exciting.

He's very handsome. Okay. So, yeah, a different chapter where – You would have gone through all of this adventure. Yeah. All of these twists and turns. We haven't even touched on what was the one hurdle that you didn't see coming? What was the one mistake that you made that, my gosh, if you could say to someone who was doing their own grind and building their own business, do not do that.

That is a no trespassing. Don't go there.

Oh, does it ever. Serge Normand, leading hairstylist in the industry. And you know him because you worked at his salon in LA way back when. Yeah. And man, he and I became friends after he did my hair for my wedding. Yeah. So my family had just moved to California. We were staying in our friend's home. And because it was the pandemic, I kept ordering boxed hair dye.

Right. So by instilling confidence in the people that were going to invest in you, it gave you freedom, which I think as an entrepreneur, part of it too, is you've always kept a really tight team.

And even when you have a cap table and you have investors, I think all the investors that you've brought on, they are so emotionally invested in you as well as financially invested in you. So you don't have people breathing down your neck, which I think can happen quite a bit, certainly in private equity.

But you have people that either have big businesses or big voices or platforms that in whatever way they can help you. support you in this growth and in this chapter.

We show up for you.

What does that mean to you?

Thanks, Meg. what is unwavering is your commitment to excellence and your value system and your value system right so that that appears in any of these iterations of what you did to now continue to build while you're still building i know that sounds odd but again like most people go i built a salon not i built the salon then the brand and then still thinking about what could come next

I mean, I'm doing the podcast right now, the show and the brand. And I went, that's three launches at the same time.

It's a lot of moving pieces, but it's also energizing.

Katie, I love you. You're the best. Thank you so much. Thank you. Next week, we're talking to a founder who never let no get in her way.

And I thought, I'm going to look just like she does on the box. And instead, it was this very inky, almost Elvira-esque black hair. And I had texted Serge. And he said, you need to see Katie. Yeah. And you came over. I mean, we were masked and all the thing. I mean, it was such an interesting time, but I remember that day so well.

And if you don't know, next week you'll know. See you then.

Well, because for people who don't remember, this is at the height of George Floyd and just so much unrest. And that's when we met. And I also hadn't realized until I was doing my research. I had known you had your salon, but I didn't know that you had just opened it, what, eight or nine months before that that we had met.

I mean, what was that experience like to have opened it, to feel like you've finally gotten there and then things really come to a full stop?

But also what's incredible about that is it speaks to everything that I think is the ethos of what you've built the salon and the brand off of, which is community.

Right? So for you, you had already invested so much in the relationships that... People were going to show up for you in the same way that you've showed up for them. And I remember as well, you saying when the salon was going to reopen, how were you going to address these big conversations and topics?

Wow. Yeah, I guess. How did that make you feel? I mean... What was coming up for you? Every day must have felt different.

a lot of feelings.

Okay.

Well, you just said it. I was like, oh, my God. Okay. Perhaps. Stay on track. Perhaps. We'll save this for a glass of wine on Sunday after all this.

Okay. Well, so you've always been fearless and just getting right to the point, my Leo sister. Yeah. Okay. So how did those go?

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I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Okay, so I think you guys know I really like being in the garden and running a business. Funny enough, it's a lot like gardening. Some seasons are for blooming.

That's linkedin.com slash female founder to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

So in those early days of kitsch as you're, you know, going door to door and getting customer feedback and pivoting as necessary to make sure the packaging that you're making in your apartment and the hair ties you're making in your apartment are all what you feel will be of service for people in their day to day. How do you get over that next hurdle?

What's that first break that you have that gets you at a completely different level, the baby step or the giant leap?

We'll call them minor stones. Someone said instead of milestones, it's inch stones.

Oh, that extra wide headband for when you're washing your face is one of the best products. Oh, thank you. I love that thing.

Well, and also down to the core of what you have always liked doing. So you look at the evolution of that. And for me, I was like, I've been making preserves. I've been giving fruit baskets. I've loved to garden before. Before I had a house and a garden like this in my bungalow, I had a lemon tree.

And in a way, all these years later, because that's been the undercurrent of how I like to show up for people, to have that still be ingrained in how I show up through the business where the hero product really starts as a fruit spread, right?

I think it's interesting in talking to so many different entrepreneurs and a lot of the origin stories are women who do not come from a lot, do not have a big MBA. I didn't go to business school. Yeah. But you're recognizing what there are needs for and you're also saying, what do I want to share in the world?

And how do I want to share it thoughtfully and intentionally and also with a micro focus on detail? And I think that is the undercurrent through how you've built to where you are. Talk about the evolution to the next step and then the evolution of you from founder and wife to founder, wife and mom.

Others are for planting seeds. But most of the work, especially early on, It's tending to the soil. It's the foundation. It's what everything is going to grow out of. You got to make sure the roots are strong enough to carry what's coming next. And this is especially true when you're bootstrapping a business, running a business independent of any investors, private equity, VC.

This is how I'm doing the job. Yes. So I'm going to actually write down what I'm doing so I can bring in the person that can take this off the plate.

Oh, wow. What do you think it took you to get to the seven-year window of I'm okay?

But Cassie, that's so fascinating because up until then and before you had had Kitsch and before you had had your daughter... You were kind of winging it. I was winging it. On all the other things. You didn't need to, your self-identity or your sense of self or purpose wasn't tied up in being good at all the things. It was being good enough, figuring it out.

And that at some point, I'm so curious to, you have this pinnacle of success with the business. I'm assuming at that point, you probably have some investors too.

I'm shocked.

Are you joking? No, I'm not. Wow. I'm just, I'm so blown away. You talk about inspiring. That is so inspiring that you've been able to maintain that for so long. But, you know, nevertheless, based on what you're saying... That's just so wild to me that so much of how you navigated all those years preceding the business and preceding being a mom, you didn't have that feeling.

You are doing it on your own. You have to be so intentional and careful with all of your choices. And you can't expect a harvest to happen overnight. That's impossible, right? And look, this can be challenging, especially in a culture that praises growth at all costs. You are in the race to succeed and success looks like numbers. That's what you're after.

And there is something about, I will say for myself, especially when they're baby babies, and yes, the crime. Before I was a mom, and I've always wanted to be a mom, before I was a mom, I was like, oh gosh, I'm going to give a speech with a baby on my hip. Yeah. I had a whole vision. I was like, I'm just going to. And then you fast forward.

Granted, I had a lot of external things happening by the time I had both pregnancies and both babies, but it was not the way I envisioned it. But so for you, that's a lot from infancy to toddler time, all the way to the age of seven. And then at seven, something shifted. Yeah.

That's linkedin.com slash female founder to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Spring is in full swing, and I have been having so much fun updating my wardrobe thanks to Jenny Kane. Jenny Kane creates classic, elevated pieces that are perfect for every season. I love pops of bright color, and they have this lemon pleated skirt that's in my cart right now.

Yes. Well, and again, this speaks to what you've said about not always having a strategy, but always having a vision. Yes. So being able to see that North Star where you can trust that you're going to be even on the darkest days, but... You know, as we go back to Tula and you said that she has this entrepreneurial spirit. For me, it's so important that my kids see me as a working mom.

Now, if that's important to you, if you're saying you see in her that same spirit of you making these retainers, which I'm just picturing you in this garage putting glitter and a pink retainer and someone walking in and going, what have you just done? It's amazing. I'm assuming Tula is not making retainers. What is the entrepreneurial spirit that is coming out of her right now?

But financing your own company forces a very different kind of rhythm. It invites you to choose patience over speed. And guess what? Eventually, with a strong vision and all of that care on the details, Oh, that garden will grow.

That's amazing. And you know I love a lemon. You do.

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I know in some of your previous interviews, you've talked about being a people pleaser. So how hard was that for you to compartmentalize when you can intellectualize what you should be doing as an entrepreneur? But emotionally, it's a very different experience.

So in all of that, how to really, really clearly define and refine what are the things to be taken off of your plate now and what are the things that you don't want someone to take off your plate because you're like, no, by doing that, you're removing the thing that brings me joy. Has that evolved from where you started to where you are now?

Cassandra Thurswell, I call her Cassie, is the founder and CEO of Kitsch, a leading brand in the hair care and beauty industry. But what I discovered during our conversation is that this is a founder who hasn't taken a single dollar of investment capital. Ever. Cassie has led with tenacity, consistency, and a deep understanding of what her customers really want.

Let's keep going. Yes. And also finding those people who are able to pull up a stool into your head and really understand your taste level and be able to do the product development the way that you would do it if you could so that you can let it go. So you can let it go and you can still sleep at night. Yes. Because I think so much of it is being in a tremendous level of trust.

You're entrusting, as you grow, so many other people to carry out the vision that you had. And so in that, what are you comfortable sharing that were maybe some of the mistakes that if you could do it differently, you would adjust?

Because if so much of your ethos is about being of service, and even though you haven't done as many podcasts or panels, doing this now is such an act of service for young entrepreneurs who are starting a business to be able to know, Oh, I don't have to do that, that, and that. She would have done that, that, and that differently.

Which is wild in such an oversaturated market. Yeah. And I'm just so proud of you, Cassie.

Our paths were meant to cross. I'm so glad they did. Thank you.

And she created Kitsch thinking about your hair care routine from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep. She did it thoughtfully. intentionally. And she saw the products we were already using and said, wait a minute, how can we do that better? And that question, that single question led her to her multi-million dollar valuation.

Next week, we're talking to a founder who sold a majority stake of her billion dollar brand. to build something completely new and very unexpected.

Can you guess who it is? We'll see you next week.

Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Catherine Barnes and Oja Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vince Evans. Rachel Neal is our VP of new content and production.

And Steve Nelson is our SVP of weekly content and production. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. There's more Confessions of a Female Founder with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content when you subscribe in Apple Podcasts. You can also listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. Thanks so much for listening.

We'll see you next week.

Sing out, Louise!

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And that's why I genuinely, I can't wait for you to hear her thoughts on starting small, how she got to where she is today, and how we met so, so, so many years before all of this happened. Let's go, Cass. I was just texting with Heather.

Oh, I love that. I literally, I said, I need to run. I'm going to do the interview with Cassie right now. She's like, tell her I said hi.

It's true. Yeah. It's true. I was auditioning, and your cousin, one of my best friends, Heather... And I was like, I just need some style. Yes. I need my closet to look good. She goes, my cousin Cassie could help. Yeah. She does that. She has great style. And you come into my little house that I was renting. And I remember my closet. Do you remember that closet door was within the bathroom? Yes.

It's like, we'll call it, Megan, we'll call it a bungalow. We'll be sheep. It was a bungalow. And yeah, you had to walk through my bedroom, past my bed, back. past the shower and the sink, which were right there, and the toilet. And then right across from that was the door that opened into my very small closet, to which I said, Cassie, can you help make this stylish and give me a vibe?

To which she said, yes.

It was so... I mean, honestly, it was also... And this is pre-suits for me. This is really early days when I was auditioning. And I just remember... literally going through things and you think, okay, well, there are a couple of staples that you need.

This is important because it speaks to, even though it wasn't the thing that you did, but you could add it to your resume, you talk about not having a strategy, but always hustling. Yes. And being able to say, okay, well, I don't necessarily know how to do this, but I'm going to figure out a way to be good at it.

And when you called me and said, I just found the best pair of black patent leather Louboutin wedge flats... And they're $200. I remember going, that's as much as I pay. I cannot, you're like, I promise you, you are going to wear, I promise you. Do you know what's so funny? Because of course I wore those shoes till the red wore out.

I wore those shoes on my final audition for Suits when I booked the part. Wow.

Yeah, it was a vision board of a different guy. What year are we talking about when we met?

And that is at the same time I remember you talking about making hair ties. And that, of course, has now evolved into Kitsch, which is... Pretty extraordinary. And the accolades that not just the brand and the company have, but you as a female entrepreneur have are incredible. Before we get to how you got there, where did that entrepreneurial spark begin?

And you talked about a little bit of this at other interviews, but for people who don't know, let's take us all the way back.

Pair it with one of their simple tops and a crochet sun hat, and you are good to go. Jenny Kane pieces are great because you can dress them up or dress them down. They transition flawlessly from grabbing coffee to heading into the office to going out to dinner or even just lounging on the couch. Find your new spring uniform at Jenny Kane.

Wow. Yeah. And even how engaged you are with the customer service experience and listening to your customers, that speaks to the exact same thread that you're pulling on from all those years ago where you're saying, It's personal. This is something you have on your body. This is something that you're investing in and you get to be part of that story of the thing that they have with them every day.

Yes, it's of service. It's intuitive. It's listening. I mean, I think part of it is as you talk about the ethos being something that is evergreen, that can be applied to a lot of different modalities. Why did it start with hair ties? How did it start with hair ties? Outside of the fact that you have such gorgeous, epic, legendary hair.

And our listeners get 15% off your first order when you use code CONFESSIONS at checkout. That's 15% off your first order at J-E-N-N-I-K-A-Y-N-E dot com promo code CONFESSIONS. Let getting dressed be one less thing to worry about.

Well, actually, let's just talk about the handmade part because Kitsch, even the name, the namesake, that's so much a part of it. Can you talk to that for a second?

And also probably much easier to trademark.

No, but the complications of it, again, you know, I mean, all of that stuff as you're figuring it out, I think it's just so important for people to hear that because you're bootstrapping it. Yeah. And not even knowing that

Something that people oftentimes when they create their business plan and they have their strategic roadmap and they're going to approach this investor and they've already thought about who they're going to sell it to and they reverse engineer. You said, okay, I've saved up this money. $30,000, right? $30,000, yeah. And that is how you said, I'm going to go forward with this.

And so when you're saying private label, you're talking about at this point you're designing for Jewelry for Forever 21, for Hot Topic, for Urban Outfitters. How old were you at this time? So I was 23, 24.

Yeah. I didn't know you were doing that at the same time. I was not.

Why STEM? What made you realize how big of a deal it was?

Oh, no. No one's calling me. I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Behind the scenes, there are so many struggles that female founders don't post about.

And you don't really think of coding as the person who's on the stage giving the speeches. You think of it as the person who's behind the keyboard.

Well, and the creation for access in such a different way, right? For that next step that they may have otherwise not even had a window to peer in through to know that that was a room that was worth going into.

Completely. And now as we look at all the different modality, AI and everything else to really get ahead of how they can be integral. In the creation of those next phases of tech. So, but what was the big break with Girls Who Code? When did people start paying attention and you went, oh, I'm actually onto something here?

But we all also know that fundraising for nonprofits can be really hard. I mean, maybe not as hard with unicorns and rainbows there, but it can be hard. Yeah. What do you think one tip is for people who are starting specifically a nonprofit?

Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. I'm glad that I could be additive in any way. I think one of the pieces of advice I was given early on was, maybe not even advice, but insight was when you're looking at funding for a nonprofit or even in business building, but specifically in the nonprofit sector. Yes, you want to get one hook because it makes other people feel confident coming in.

But in those conversations, if you go to someone and you ask for money, they're likely going to give you advice. And if you go to someone and you ask for advice, they're much more likely to give you money.

Just go for advice because otherwise people aren't immediately feeling pressurized. You're just going for advice. And then if it makes sense for them, they'll offer up what they think you might need as opposed to going in with an ask. So different. Small distinction, but it makes a big difference, I think. I really like that. You have this quote that I love.

It was, leaders cannot or should not stay in organizations forever. You can't stay innovative if you have the same person leading the movement forever.

Such an interesting insight because a lot of people, I think in that same pursuit of success as we're talking about, especially as female founders, stepping away could feel like failure as opposed to the choice, the active choice you make to say, no, I'm not just doing this for myself. I'm doing this for this organization.

They don't even talk about the moments when you feel broken, when things don't go as planned, when simply showing up feels like a huge feat. And yet we do it. We push through. We keep smiling. We keep going out there. You get on the panel. You do the thing.

That is a lot of, I'm not going to say work. I'm talking about self-work. That is a lot of growth that takes people...

tremendous amount of time to settle into the confidence to be able to do that and to not feel rattled when the phone's not ringing to not feel rattled when you've stepped out of the light so to speak but as you step out of the light you're actually stepping into your own light in a different way and creating space for someone else to be in the light which is probably the larger purpose of all of us being here that's so beautiful so true

And I'll bring this up if you're comfortable talking about it because I know you've spoken publicly about as you were doing Girls Who Code, all the interpersonal things that are happening for you at that time and the miscarriages that you've experienced. I've spoken about the miscarriage that we experienced. Yeah. And I think in some parallel way...

When you have to learn to detach from the thing that you have so much promise and hope for and to be able to be okay at a certain point to let something go, something go that you plan to love for a long time.

And at a certain point, though, it does raise the question, how do we redefine what it means to be a female founder without just running ourselves into the ground?

Yes. But that in the journey, how many layers come up and then you can start to recognize those patterns. In your business, in your life, in, you know, I was, what is that book? I actually think I have it here. My friend just sent me this passage yesterday. It's called The Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and the Horse. It's a children's book that came out of the UK a couple of years ago.

But at any rate, beautiful illustrations. I have to get it for you. But the quote is, what is the bravest thing you've ever said? Ask the boy. Help, said the horse. Mm-hmm. And at a certain point, you go, the courage that it takes for a female founder, the courage that it takes for a woman when you're on this path, you're on this grind, you've set expectations.

The courage that it takes to say, I need help or I need to pause is tremendous. And there is no way to continue to show up and role model for these young women all the things that you aspire for them to have that you wanted to have when you were a young girl if you are not doing it with complete authenticity because you are so close to being burned out.

Fighting for what you believe in and all the highs and the lows that come with it. And that's precisely why I wanted to talk to Reshma Saujani. She founded not one, but two incredible nonprofits that help close the gender gap for women. First, with Girls Who Code. And now, with Moms First. She's lived the pressures of building a business both behind the scenes and in the spotlight.

Not allowed to break. You have to keep smiling. All of these constructs that I think we've all been prey to and have projected. And at a certain point, I mean, I often find too, even in the advocacy work or showing up and wanting to that you go, Am I saying the thing, but I'm not doing the thing? Yeah. And when can we start taking our own advice? What do you think that pivot point will be?

When will the inflection point happen where women, especially the ones who are leading in these movements and leading in this messaging? To actually integrate that advice and not just know it or intellectualize it, to integrate it for you to say, yeah, you know, honey, I am going to clear the rest of my schedule after this appointment. Please, can you drive me and come with me? Yeah.

And her candid take on leading a movement, it's going to make you rethink how to fight for what you believe in. Let's get into it. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so happy you're here. It's been a while.

So you mentioned before the break that a lot of these young female entrepreneurs that have that desire to build something are looking at their mentors and saying... No, thank you. Yeah. Based on the burnout they're seeing. And so I guess the question is, how do we turn that around? Yeah. How do we show that perfect doesn't exist?

And maybe that's part of the messaging, but also what does it look like now when you can find balance?

Yes. Now you have the title of mom, just like me. Favorite title.

I love being a mom. Oh, my gosh. I love being a mom so much. It's my favorite thing. It is the thing where you're like, oh, my gosh, I just need a break. I just need a minute. I just need a minute. And the second you step into the room, you go, oh, but I... Where are they? Let me just pop, let me just, let me scroll through pictures of them endlessly on my phone.

And then you just, my husband's like, my love, can you just give yourself a minute? Why don't you go work out? Why don't you go take a bath? I'm like, I know, but I just want to cuddle for, it's the parenting paradigm where it is so full on and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

But I think what's really key about what you said, and the pandemic may have been the thing that shifted this when working from home and parenting from home where they are, completely converged can feel incredibly overwhelming how do you feel about that

Yes. Life was difficult. Well, I mean, we had met 2018, I guess. You were very pregnant. Oh, my gosh. Yes, it would have been 2018, pregnant with Archie at Kensington Palace. Yes. How did you end up at that meeting with me?

And also with that comes the woman who is juggling it all and doing it all from home, being confident enough to tell the truth about what's going on. Because you can't give grace to someone in the same way if you just have no sense of it.

You don't know if they, my kids, for example, right now, one has RSV, the other has influenza A. I hear a little pitter-patter of feet upstairs from school, you know, cough syrup all night and rubbing the back and this and you go, and we still find a way to show up for both.

But being able to be comfortable enough, and maybe that's to your earlier point, how we teach this generation who might not feel as inspired to do some of the change making that we know has been so fundamental, say, no, just be honest in the journey of it.

And say, yeah, today I'm going to show up for you, but I'm showing up for you in my sweatshirt today because I've been up all night with my babies. But I'm still going to be able to show up for both because both matter and both are what keep my cup full.

It's true. It's true. And that's the shift that has to come. And I think, look, as you continue to grow out I don't know what your next chapter looks like for you, especially when you say eight years and then maybe time for a change. Now you've already forecasted that in some way because we know your proof points of how that works. What do you feel like your next chapter will be?

Oh, that's kind to say generous. I was thrilled to learn more at the time. I would say even the idea of coding and STEM, do you remember? That's when things were transitioning from STEM to STEAM. It was so new and it was definitely new for me, but I remember you came in, we sat in the audience room and I just said, tell me all about it. But

And sometimes just when you think you're about to win, oh, man, did that hurt because that feels like quite a loss. But you just keep going. And I think my understanding, especially in having this time to be able to hear your story and talk with you and see the commonality in some of these other – equally successful women that I'm speaking with.

We're going to talk about what's behind every successful woman. What's behind every successful woman is self-awareness. There comes a point where each of these women on their journeys has such a tremendous sense of self-awareness and the desire to dig deeper.

Yes. And everything has some expense, right? But when you're looking, what's the ROI? What is your return on the investment of everything you're pouring into that? And at the end of the day, what you're doing is creating legacy that will, whether you see those changes in your lifetime or our kids' lifetime, it still steps in the right direction of what legacy is all about.

And that I think is one of the most fascinating, probably most powerful things about the journey of creation as a female founder. You're creating something with lasting impact.

And thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it. How far we've come and yet here we are. Here we are. Wherever we go, here we are. I really appreciate it. Next week, we are talking to an iconic founder in the beauty industry. She is a hair colorist. She's a stylist too, but my goodness, can this girl do some color? And she has turned her passion into products that people crave.

Can you guess who it is? I'll see you then.

But it was such a great sit down because it was an eye opener for me of so many other ways in which women were showing up for young girls. And I'm curious to get into how that became your focal point. But can we just start well before that? Can we go way, way back? Take us back to the beginning.

Which is beautiful and also completely confounding when you know more about your upbringing, how you were bullied, how you were mistreated, how you were beaten up. For a lot of people, that would... No, no, I'm not showing up in the spirit of love anymore. I've been too bruised and beaten. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because you grew up in Chicago and what was it like?

Oh, the sparkly BB shirt that said BB in sequins across the front. I saved up for that.

It's quite the acronym. But it's definitely high impact for a 12 or 13-year-old girl to come up with that. It says a lot.

I turned to hope. I mean, honestly, it just says so much about your character to look yourself in the mirror and really see who you are. But even from that moment, you're still at a crossroads where you could have chosen, you know what, I am going to be an entrepreneur and I'm going to build a business and I'm going to be so successful. But instead, your activist spirit is what came through, right?

Didn't you make a plea to the dean? Didn't you just really go in? I did. I did.

Oh, wow.

Right. That it will break you as opposed to break you open for the possibility of more.

Yeah. And when it breaks open, it leaves space and room for so much more love, growth, resilience to all pour in. Yeah.

I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today.

So you and Trina decide to be partners. She leaves Blackstone. You're getting your ducks in a row. You were getting feedback on some of the items, and they were saying they're just not fitting quite right. Oh, yeah. What was that moment at the beginning? Because as a founder, we all have that, oh, my gosh, I've crossed every T and dotted every I, and how on earth did I miss that?

So you were there at a shift change. At a shift change. Yeah. You knew when they'd be coming in and out of their cars. Right. And you could be there with your, I mean, what were people using to, were they buying with cash or did you have this swipe? What was that?

Yeah.

So as I've been building as ever, oh, let me tell you, it is just a constant state of recalibration. There's joy in that. but we are always in motion.

No.

Yeah. Well, all that stuff happens at the beginning. I mean, the types of... And minutia that at a certain point as a founder, at the onset, you kind of have to be across every single granular detail. For me, I don't know how to not have love in the details. But at what point do you go, okay, those were your beginning learns, and then you've grown to a company of how many employees?

Yes, you have 350 people at headquarters that you have to entrust to oversee, as you said, the quality control, other elements. What has that been like for you in the growth to make you go, okay, I'm in trust that they're going to solve it, that it's going to be okay, that you're not in the minutia in the same way as you were at the onset?

And if you're a founder yourself, you know exactly what I mean, because we're moving at warp speed, problem solving, filling gaps in real time, scratching a million tiny, tiny things off of your to-do list, but not in that fun way like a lotto ticket. And then all of a sudden, you're switching gears and you're thinking about the big picture strategy and where you want to be in five or 10 years.

Mm-hmm. And bring in A-plus people that you can trust to do and delegate and speak on your behalf, but look at it through the same lens that you would. I mean, okay, so let's just go from year one. Yeah. To now at year 13. So you're at year one. You have this, not blind faith, but this faith in what you guys are creating.

And even as you have little moments, as we were talking about with that manufacturing pickup, or I wonder without a fashion background outside of your handbag line that you had started, what was the inspiration for changing fashion? The colors, the fit, was it trend driven? Was it just trying to make things more tailored?

And also, were you and do you continue to meet with the trends on how that should look? Or do you just say these are evergreen? These are the styles that we do. The colors pop in a different way. You know, I'm just curious how you did that. And equally, the second part of that question would be when you talk about sizing.

And you're incredible in what FIGS does in terms of accommodating so many different body types and shapes and sizes. What that does for you from an inventory standpoint, because I think a lot of small businesses certainly at the onset are so scared of having inventory just sitting on their shelves because they don't know which units are going to move first.

So more timeless designs than are key. So it doesn't feel like you're not going to have a puffed shoulder anymore. cool, like, on-trend scrub style. You're keeping something that will work no matter what.

And oftentimes, all of this, every single beat of that, Happens in the same day, sometimes in the same hour. But I guess that's where the magic is, right? Because it can get messy. And the best founders are not afraid to get their hands dirty. And I don't mean play dirty. I mean, when it's clean up on aisle five time, you are the first person there with a mop.

It really is cutting through a lot of red tape in a way that you probably wouldn't have thought about beforehand, even if you're just talking about color considerations in hospitals, but you've made a choice to really connect with your customer in a way that feels personal. And because you were goal-oriented on something that was helping in a tremendous way globally and having a ripple effect.

That's, I think, why it ended up yielding so much interest and success because I want to hear about for you when you decided to do your first round or have series A or B, what was that like the first time you went from friends and family investing in your handbag company to then bootstrapping, you know, what you guys were doing at the beginning to realizing you needed to scale?

How were you going to scale without capital and what that was like, who you went to and how you ended up doing that first raise?

They couldn't buy into the story, the vision? Yeah. No.

Both. They were both. Oh, man. Yeah.

Well, that even feels worse because you're using all the charm in the room and it's not working. Yeah.

What were you using it towards? Was it towards marketing? Was it towards building inventory? What was the usage that people have a real learn of how you can take that and turn it into $2 billion plus revenue?

Wow, that's great. Well, I also love just the loyalty in that because they believed in you. They were incentivized because they wanted it, but they believed in your vision from the beginning. It suddenly becomes really personal.

The large question that a lot of people listening will probably ask is, how do you get someone to buy into your vision? How do you get someone to believe in the thing as deeply as you do? Because as you're saying, you went through so many no's, like an auditioning actor, before you heard yes. But what makes that yes happen? Is that just timing? Is that the right connection?

Heather Hassan turned that hustle into something so much bigger. She built Figs alongside her co-founder, Trina Spear, and together they turned healthcare apparel into a billion-dollar business. They created scrubs that are stylish, colorful, comfortable, and they're made with their customers' top of mind. Figs is the ultimate if-you-know-you-know brand. And once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Is that stars in alignment? Or is there something that changed in how you conveyed your vision?

Yeah, expand it beyond what people can wrap their heads around. Because, of course, no one would have thought... that we were going to then be facing a pandemic and how FIGS showed up for that where it had just been scrubs. If you looked at the TAM, you weren't thinking about masks at the onset.

And then suddenly that ends up being a very, very vital part of how the entire world was navigating through this. Can you talk a little bit about what happened when the pandemic began and how you guys showed up in that moment?

Doing volunteer work or doing work with the business?

But so when you hear this news and you're in Vietnam and you're at the factory, is Trina with you? Do you call Trina? Do you leave?

What do you end up doing in that immediate moment when you recognize we're going to have to action something and you're kind of figuring it out in real time, I think, as the rest of the world was, but you know it directly affects your business and how you can show up for your customer?

Wow. I mean, it's just, I think for anyone who's listening, they have to feel so inspired by what you've created by...

They're everywhere. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation with Heather. Let's dive in. How are we doing? We're doing great. How are you? Really good. I'm so happy to meet you. When I had met Trina at G9... She may have mentioned it to you. I don't know. She was very surprised when I knew what FIGS was. She said, I have a company called FIGS. I said, I know FIGS. She goes, do you actually?

Knowing that one moment, one observation of something can end up changing the trajectory of your whole life where you build something and have a robust team, but also that you're continuing to pivot to the needs of what the company wants and also outplaying and over-delivering on what the expectation is, even for your investors. And so speaking of that, what was it like to take FIGS public? Yeah.

And... What type of hardships would you be comfortable sharing so that people know that it's not just an easy road?

Yes, you can. Do you feel more resilient after having gone through that? Because I will say you won. And we won. You fought that fight and you won. So in some ways coming out of that, because I think every entrepreneur in ways big or small are going to deal with things that feel like battles or criticism or scrutiny or legal or what have you.

And how do you stay the course through that as opposed to just going, what is the point? They're coming for me. How did you stay the course? Why did you choose to fight the fight? And how did you feel coming out of it with a win?

Yeah.

Onward next. Yeah. I mean, that's huge. And so now as you've stepped out of a more formalized role, but you're still in the weeds and in the granular for figs, what are you working on now?

It was almost like a test.

Wow.

Yes, with peer-to-peer learning and understanding that even in the cultural context of things, how much we can learn about what's happening on the other side of the globe, even though you have the same profession.

Well, you guys have been around for a while. But any time that you see somebody either for... I think it transcends beyond hospitals. In someone's home, they have on FIGS uniforms. But also, I work with Children's Hospital LA. And I see a lot of the people wearing that. And you just saw that something shifted from...

I'm like, why does every female entrepreneur that I talk to says that, and yet they do? They're like, no, no, then this is it, then I'm done. And they're like, oh, I kind of got the bug, but I see something else I can do and be helpful with, so let's do that too.

Well, well done. I think this is going to be illuminating for so many people. And also just a good reminder that... You don't have to have some revolutionary idea that is reinventing the wheel to be able to see a hole in the market, to recognize where you can be additive in a way that's not just going to be profit building, but is going to really be fulfilling on a level that you can...

rest well at night knowing that your purpose has really added to someone else's sense of worth and how they show up in their job and filled a need in a different way and i think it's it's really profound what you what you guys have been able to create so well done oh thank you so much megan

Next week, we're talking to a founder who bootstrapped a, wait for it, hair tie business and turned it into an $87 million beauty brand.

Are you joking? No, I'm not. Can you guess who it is? See you next week.

When I was young and you'd be in any sort of medical setting and you saw very ill-fitting scrubs that were probably not comfortable, too, things are looking a little more tailored. And I remember going, wow, that looks so different. And just knowing it and clocking it and seeing the little figs logo on there. So I just know your brand.

Ah, for those that can't see us, my darling dog Mia is pawing her way into this podcast, literally.

Yes, you'll have to come over, come to the garden and we'll like whip something up. It's very easy. I think the whole point for me, and you'll probably speak to this too, is when you see something that is an easy solve in the everyday, That's not complicated. It's not fussy. How do you get your hands involved and change the way of thinking surrounding it so it doesn't feel daunting?

You know, I see vegetables and I see takeout because I don't have time to cook every day. And I go... all right, but how do I still make this flattering and beautiful and present well and something that people find appetizing? And for you, you go, hold on, this is something that you're doing every day. You're wearing this uniform every day. You're eating every day.

How do we elevate that in a way that you feel really good about what you're doing and you feel proud about what you're wearing and you're able to have some functionality with it? In some ways, they're actually a different version of the same thing.

Yes. And also that it wasn't necessarily what you had been planning to do. You know, you were in medical school. Then you had to pivot to fashion and a handbag line, which is already in and of itself really fascinating. How does that happen?

But how were you able to start your own company? How could you invest in yourself even then?

For the people who are listening going, I'm 21. What do you mean you raised capital? How do you raise capital?

And by the way, if you were so drawn to precision and the dissection of something, the manufacturing of a very detailed bag or piece of clothing has that same level of Almost surgical precision if you're talking about the craftsmanship of it.

You manufactured 10 sets of scrubs.

I didn't have to mend something. I mean, yeah. Yeah, no, sewing's tough. It's very difficult. Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I went to college. I was a theater major and... Part of the program was you couldn't just do the acting.

You had to do soup to nuts every part of what a production would entail, which I actually think is incredible training for when you're running a team because you appreciate what the sound person does and what the lighting person does. But wardrobe department and sewing was part of it too. So good.

So I am comfortable with a sewing machine, but no, I couldn't sew 10 sets of scrubs without a pattern, I don't think. Right? It's hard. No, it's hard. It's okay. So you enlist someone to go and do that and you say, I'm going to make these 10, I'm going to send them over. Mm-hmm.

So this moment where you send the 10 out, at the onset, it's just, oh, you see a need, you want to fulfill it for them. But because of their reaction, you realize, I want to dig deeper into this. And that's what makes you go and sit in hospitals and observe what's happening there in terms of their uniforms? Yeah.

Right.

Right. It's really interesting that that becomes the catalyst for you. I love that because it's emotional, not economic.

Because she'd been on Wall Street, right? And she still does more of the op side and the business side. And you're more of the creative, I would guess. Yeah.

Well, especially at a startup phase, you're wearing so many hats. Yeah. You have to think about the customer experience. You have to think about your P&L. You have to think about what your long-term trajectory is. I don't know if as you guys were conceiving this, and even to my understanding, when you met, it wasn't with the intention of bringing on a business partner.

You met, you knew she was savvy, and then within a couple weeks, you guys realized you should be partners and do this together. How did that happen?

Why do you think she believed in it of all the things, of all the investments and all the opportunities and all the decks that get sent and all the possibilities and all the friends of a friend that say, oh, you should go and do this? Why was it this?

And there's going to be a point where you're going to have to decide if you're going to cower or if you're going to conquer or if you're going to rise above it. But it will be helpful for people to know what was the pivotal point where you just said, okay, I can't do this anymore. I've got to figure out a way out and how.

You were reading it all? Oh, yeah, of course.

I didn't help, by the way. But it's important.

Also, I mean, you touch on just now, having been in an abusive relationship or a toxic relationship, you look at what you've manifested now in your life with this incredible, loving, sweet as can be husband. Crazy cowboy. And two boys. Yes.

I mean, it is no mistake that you ended up with two boys when so much of it for you is rewriting the history of what men and boys should be in the world and that you are the one that is responsible for creating the next generation of really good men. You are married to one and then you have these two just incredible,

incredible boys they're so sweet but it's so interesting it is you have a family of boys you're surrounded by this energetic circle of the opposite of toxic masculinity that is very true and i will tell you meg the one thing i have learned in my journey and it's so interesting because this is exactly what we're focusing on at bumble is at the end of the day

Yeah. And look, I think you and I have really connected on that in a huge way. But I remember a quote from years ago. I can't remember who said it, but it's something to the effect of it's not verbatim. In a world that capitalizes on your self-doubt, loving yourself is a revolutionary act. I love that quote. It's some version of that. You're right. Or even liking yourself as a revolutionary act.

Yes. Yes. You know, you create a space with the intention, even if it morphed into something that ended up dating aligned, the root, the origin was still about autonomy, self-love, making sure that you could really advocate for yourself and be in a relationship or even the possibility of a relationship that's rooted in something that's healthy.

And because it was so authentic to you, that's how you ended up scaling to the tremendous success that you were. I mean, I'm sure the first time I ever heard about you was in Time Magazine, being the youngest self-made billionaire, female billionaire. Huge.

I'm Megan, and this is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Let's be honest. Launching a business, it can be so overwhelming. Even with the best of teams, it'll keep you up at night.

But what made you in that want to write a letter to yourself? How would that become a part of a practice for you?

Take stock in your actual stock. That's right. I think it's amazing how evolved you are. It takes a lot of years for most people to be able to have that level of of wisdom and an internal compass. It really does. And I mean, especially when you've spent a career doing the work, the business work, how would you approach that?

Or what advice, I guess, would you give to people who are listening that say, okay, well, you're saying you felt so depleted and the buckets were so low or so empty and all these other categories. But it's because of that you were able to still get to this number and get those metrics. And isn't that the goal? And then you could fill up your cups again? Would you do it differently?

But can you turn it off? I say this because last night I was just, you know, when your brain goes in a loop. Those 3 a.m. loops and it's just like you can't stop overthinking the thing and how are you going to address that? And oh gosh, but that packaging and I want the packaging to look like this and that's not the unboxing experience I had in mind. How are we going to pivot and does it matter?

And will anyone else know what the box was supposed to look like? No. Right, that's the other piece. But I think so much of it, especially at launch. Yeah, I get it. Trust me, I get it. And first impression and the pressure and you try to, I try to compartmentalize it and say, okay, all I can control is this extension of my essence and my aesthetic and what I want to share with people.

But, you know, I think in that focus on the details of, at what point can you release some of the attachment to it, right? To be completely attached to the process and attached to the intention, but in some ways detached from the outcome.

Yeah, and to infuse the joy into it. Just joy. Go back to the why. The why of it all was always in the spirit of sharing something that I loved, sharing a piece of what I loved that people maybe hadn't been able to experience. And I wonder for you, because your boys are a little bit older now. Do people know their names? Can I say their names?

Because every single decision, every micro detail, in that moment, it feels monumental. For example, a month ago, I was absolutely consumed with packaging. Boxes. It's all I could think about. And I would sit there doing the unboxing in my head. Is there tissue paper? What about the packing peanuts, but they're biodegradable? And where does the sticker go?

Okay, so Bobby and Henry are a little bit older now, but also still in the same age range. bracket as Archie and Lily, do you find that going through all of this as a mom was different than prior to and your perspective was different?

An autopilot.

And you've learned to create boundaries, which I think is so important. They're important. In business, it's so key, especially when you're talking about in the grind of a business where you have a small team and then once you scale to a really large team, that they can have a touch point with you. But there's also a boundary so that you're protecting your own energy.

You're protecting the relationship with the team as well. But you can, you know, I've talked to a couple other founders about this, the pressure that they feel to be the cheerleader for everyone and all of that.

makes sense to a certain extent but also who's cheerleading you and maybe that shifts once we have a solid family network as both of us do to be able to and girlfriends that can fill up the cup in that way and we both had very similar experiences that we didn't know each other at the time with postpartum Yep. And we both had preeclampsia, postpartum preeclampsia.

Oh God, can you believe we both had that? It's so rare. It's so rare. And so scary. And so scary. And you go, and you're still trying to juggle all of these things and the world doesn't know. Thank you.

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And hold on, what size is the box going to be? And no, that's not going to fit all the SKUs. Oh my gosh. And then someone says, but you don't want to brand the outside of the box because of porch pirates. Had never heard that before. What's a porch pirate? And then I'm sitting there and I'm like, does any of this actually matter? Of course it matters.

Thank you. Thank you.

It matters at the beginning, but how much does it matter? And the person that I thought, no, the person that I knew was perfect to talk to about this, that had to lead the season, well, she's one of my closest friends. She's the founder of the dating app Bumble. She's been named one of Time Magazine's most influential people in styles women changing the world. The list goes on and on and on.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

You've heard of her. It's Whitney Wolfe Heard. Not only is Whitney a wildly successful female entrepreneur, but she's the kind of friend who just always seems to know the exact right thing to say when I need perspective.

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And Witt is an undeniable visionary. But what I love most about her is her ability to cut through the noise, focus on what truly matters, and be vulnerable in the honesty of what that experience has been like. Even when you're like me and you're sitting around stressed about packaging. You're in for a treat. How you doing, beauty? I'm just so happy to see you, and this is going to be so much fun.

I know. I know. And honestly, I just want the conversations to feel relaxed and easy. Yeah. And also thinking about how I am just in it right now, talking to people who've also been so in it and have so many iterations, whether they've IPO'd or they're at the beginning of their climb or they said, great, I'm done, and then came back. Yeah, those things happen. Those things happen.

And then the evolution of that. So I want to talk about all of that. But I think when it's friends that are on with me that we have such a deep personal relationship and connection and love, as opposed to starting with just where it all began for you, I want to start with where we first met.

That was... Yes, yes. That was the theme for the party you were heading to after you had dropped by our place. And it wasn't the theme of our house. No. We were having one of those... quiet. We have young kids. We aren't having a night out kind of New Year's Eve where we would have, I'd call it a East Coast New Year's. So that ball is dropping for our 9 p.m. and I'm going to bed.

But you guys came over with our other friends and it was the first time we met the two of you. And to this day, Archie still will say, when do I get to see the Cowboys again? He would have that first impression for him is so ingrained that even though, yes, I mean, your husband is a cowboy and yes, you guys, like that is a huge part of your life.

But to see a real cowboy as a, what was he at the time? Two or three?

Oh, no, like PJ masks. PJ masks.

Yeah, that was the beginning of our whirlwind. That was the beginning. And that was even where I didn't think it was going to become a friendship thing. that would also be in many ways the soundboard for me with work and business. And I was still in such an incubation stage, not even of a brand, but just an ideation of what it could be.

And you always, I mean, think about so many times sitting there where you're like, okay, let's talk it through. Let's make a plan. What's the business plan? What do you want to do? What's your essence? No way, this could be right for you. And just helping me, whereas so many people I think often will make the false assumption

that when someone is really successful, part of that success is because they keep it close, where really part of that success is because you share it so broadly. I think that's beautiful. And so generously. No, but it's true. I'm talking about you. Like, that's how you show up. And I mean, I've loved that. We've never actually talked extensively about...

Everything that happened with you and your career trajectory and a lot of it is like covered ground. So I don't need us to go through all that. I think people know your story of going from Tinder and then certainly creating your own thing. But I would love to talk about even before all of that. Before all of that, what was that voice inside?

Who was that person inside that knew you had an entrepreneurial spirit or not?

Oh my God, that keeps coming up. That's so wild. That's so wild. You said that exact thing. Yes, your essence. How do you bottle your essence?

No, no. Yet authentically, authentically, you knew that there was a need and you figured out a different way to fill that need.

Yeah. And I think most people would be surprised to know that Bumble, even you wanting to do something differently, was not called Bumble at first. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about your original concept, which was an app called Merci? And where did that name come from? What was the intention?

Yes.

And so- Well, and maybe because you understand it in whatever degree, You know how to show up for me.

Yes.

I'm going to rebuild myself. But how did that happen? How did you come out of the shell and decide to move past that? Because I think that's really important for people to hear. No matter whatever scale they're at, there's going to be a point where you're going to take a hit. Yeah.

But what we're talking about is in some ways food trends, which you were ahead of the curve on because I was thinking about it. And maybe 10, 15 years ago was when people didn't know how to pronounce quinoa and they were saying canoa. So there are these items and ingredients that have been part of our natural ecosystem and dietary system for a long time, whether acknowledged or not.

that somehow you say mushrooms and now people have a connotation attached to it. But it's really just a food trend that I believe you were far ahead of in terms of saying, hold on, these have properties that can in some way make you feel differently in a really safe way. During my pregnancies, I had an Ayurvedic doctor and so much of it was about seeing food as medicine.

And so when you're talking about Raj's experience of going through grief and much of the Western ideology of just Writing a prescription for someone. I think what I loved about our first sit down was you saying, I just sort of thought there might be another way to help whatever emotions were coming up or help soothe the nervous system.

And then once you saw his experience of it, you guys decided to do what?

It was so, as you say, infancy stage. It was so new. And yet somehow it had gotten into my hands. And I said, I think there's something here. And I think as just people in general, and certainly as women, sometimes you don't get the opportunity to trust your gut.

but when you do i just kept i kept thinking about it all and i said i just really think she's on to something that i believe in and then from there i'll be honest with you i went okay well now i have a big responsibility oh my gosh i want this to succeed but i also want to in the same way that you authentically showed up i want to authentically share it so fortunate that some of the people that i wanted to share it with are ones that also have um

Reach. Reach. Reach. And I remember calling you and saying, look, I just want to share with my neighbor, my wonderful neighbor, Ms. Oprah Winfrey. And it was a turmeric latte that I loved the most at the moment, the golden latte. And it was around the winter holidays. So it was cold outside and you just wanted to feel warm and cozy. And this drink, it felt that way. And I remember sending it to...

several friends and neighbors into her. And then I don't remember the video that she ended up making. I remember the video. I can describe it to you.

In her actual kitchen.

So much of entrepreneurship is convincing people that your vision is worth their time and their money. And when I think about big milestones for my own business with As Ever, I mean, Netflix coming on as my business partner, huge.

Because we all loved it. And then it was, how do we make it creamier? We could do it with oat milk instead of with water. And then I went through that whole phase, do you remember, where I couldn't have oats or oat milk? So you made me my own special version. I did. Little mason jar concoctions of it, which I loved so much.

But yeah, I think it was interesting because that timing, again, in terms of authenticity and being organic, I sent that from the spirit of wanting to share it with people that I knew would enjoy it. And I didn't know at the time what the submissions were like for Oprah's favorite things. No one would think about that. No one thinks about long lead press.

And even that terminology, long lead press, meaning there are some publications where two or three weeks later, there's a cover. And then there are some where it's long lead if it's a huge publication, and that will take three to four months to put everything together. And then you get that story.

So all those submissions are summertime submissions to be able to be forecasting for what they know will be loved and enjoyed and appreciated during the holiday season. So interestingly, even that year, you weren't on the list, but then the next two years you were.

Oh my gosh. And I remember just going, oh my gosh, thank you. She's like, oh my, I just love it. We're like, do you need replenishment? And then you send her a thank you note. It was so sweet.

Just having a global powerhouse that believed in me and the site selling out in the first 45 minutes of launch, everything, every single piece that we had been working on, that told me that customers, people believed in me and this vision. That's all you really want as a founder. That becomes your proof point that those late nights and the midnight musings are worth it.

And I've learned so much having invested in you and other companies and watching their trajectory to then start building my own thing, have my own partners, have other people that I have at the table that I have to make sure I'm not just doing right by me, but doing right by them, watching the evolution of it and to understand that everything is evolving. That's going to have moments that feel

Like a sucker punch?

Yeah, and that's the thing. I mean, the journey is going to have its low moments, of course, but it's also going to have its high moments. And that's a testament of your hard work, but also your ability to be nimble. So in the last five years... What have been real learns for you that would help another female entrepreneur as she's going through her process of building?

What are those points that you can think of in your own entrepreneurial journey that you would want to share with someone else who's trying to figure it out? And I'm going to take notes because I might need some of them too.

Oh my gosh. I mean, one day I just need to write an entire thing called 3 a.m. musings. The things that I wake up and write down at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Well, and I think, too, you've had a soundboard. Yes. For someone who's doing this solo, I think the thoughts can feel debilitating or you can overreact to them because you don't have someone to bounce it back with. Not only do you have Raj, but outside of that... Though your team is small, it's small and mighty.

And even though there's been evolution even in the team, as a startup in those five years, what do you have, seven, eight full-time people now? And so I think it's interesting to look at how you've been able to have that own self-reflection on what keeps you up in the middle of the night just as a founder individually. But then how do you translate that as a leader? Yeah.

And that's how I felt when I met today's guest, Hannah Mendoza. I saw her vision and I fully believed in it. And more importantly...

You're like, but I'm human, but I'm a leader and I'm the role model. So I can't be fully human in this moment. I need to restrain it and keep that humanness for home. And I think it's a really interesting construct of how you navigate what is best for your business and what is best for you as an individual.

And that even though in hiring, you might be drawn to someone because as an individual, you love that person, it might not be the right fit for what your business needs.

Yeah.

I don't know how you do business in a way that's purely clinical. I can't do that. It's emotional to build something and it's your baby. So, you know, for you, what has been the biggest takeaway when you think about friendships in business or boundaries in business and how you manage that?

Hannah Mendoza started on her founder journey young and ambitious and knowing exactly who she was. She co-founded the instant latte business Clever Blends with Roger Coppola when she was just 28 years old. And shortly after that, well, that's when I met her and I asked if I could invest in her company. In fact, Hannah was the first person I ever invested in, and I was her very first investor.

both outside of those moments where if you do cry in a meeting, do you address it with them after and say, I'm sorry, as your boss, I realize I want to keep a line or do you just give yourself grace in those moments and say, I'm human and let's see what happens tomorrow?

Well, and that you're able to, I think for all of us, because that's not sustainable. You can't be that all the time for everyone, right? So even for me, as I look at everything that I'm working on building with the team, and it's a very large team, get on the calls and have the meetings and same thing, cheerleader. But I had a moment last week where I thought, oh my gosh, who can I ladder up to?

I made a phone call. I said, is this going to work? Like, is this actually going to work? But I had that self-doubt. You can't bring self-doubt to your team that's junior to you. They have to believe in, as you said, what you're creating and the vision and how you hold the line. But you still have to be able to have someone you can go to to be human and say, I don't know.

Can you just tell me that this makes sense? And thankfully, my partner is a Are you joking? We're so energized. This is amazing. But I did. I got into that same headspace that any of us can. Because some might look at it and say, at least for me, it will have so much exposure. Whatever I put out in the world will have so much attention. And I go, yeah.

And there's a flip side to that coin, which we know. It's a microscope that a

Oh my gosh, I love their products. They're amazing. Great branding. Beautiful. Great branding. She's wonderful. Sorry, just like as a sidebar, no one has ever made a canned anchovy or sardine look cool. It's beautiful. Who does that?

Yes. The safety of stream of consciousness with someone who understands it's a different version of the same thing that they are going through or that they remember having gone through. But that's part of that sisterhood and that understanding of, okay, every day is not going to be the same.

and some days are going to be harder to show up as your best and shiniest self, maybe on that day, something really painful happened in your real life. But for your team, that's not how you show up. You can't.

I am so excited for you to hear how our stories intertwine and what we've learned from each other along the way. Let's get into it. Hi. Hello. So as opposed to starting with just where it all began for you, I want to start with where we first met. Do you remember?

I do think it's a really good point that you raise about women as cyclical beings in a way that I don't know if men are or are not. But for you, for our experiences, we're talking about it. It feels very specific to being a woman. And yet here you are with a male co-founder. Yeah. Roger Coppola. I mean, Raj is he's way more behind the scenes than you are. How do you think that feels for him?

Because it's a really different experience of what I think most males experience in the business world, where you are more the face and the forward-facing piece of clever. But Raj has been with you from the beginning. Yes. And again, part of that origin story of even what you created these drinks for in his grief process and what you were going through.

What do you think it's felt like for him to... see you the one being forward-facing and in more of the limelight, though he is still very much a part of, in a huge way, the in and out of the company every day?

Well, and also you've watched the success of it together, right? So you can celebrate it behind the scenes, even if you're the one forward-facing that's being celebrated. And I wonder what that's like for female business partners. And one woman is getting more of the accolades than the other, even if their skill sets are in different places.

Yeah, I think you're right. So... what's next for you and what's next for Clevver?

We've also talked about global expansion too, which I know, again, with food products and consumables, it's different because restrictions in different places, but the appetite for your product in so many different global territories is immense. And you look at it now, and I think the bigger question then becomes,

Again, some of the women that I talk to, they've IPO'd, they have sold, they don't want to sell. I've always looked at your company, I remember us having a really candid conversation at the beginning is what is your intention? What is your goal? Do you want to grow this to one day sell this?

Is this something we want to sell to a Starbucks or a Nestle and see it and share it in an even broader way? And I share that because there was a company that I fell in love with a ghee company. And I thought, this is going to be the next big ghee. Clarified butter. This is the thing. I had to have so much of it when I was pregnant. This is all around the same time.

And then years later, I get in touch with this founder, and it is very, very apparent that she doesn't have a dream of growing into something larger and being on the shelves of Whole Foods or Target or anything else. And in her authenticity... I was able to genuinely go, I see and respect that so much. And selling at farmer's market and having a small business is more than enough.

That's incredible if that's what's aligned for you. And I think the difference was even in your sort of relaxed manner, it was still very, very evident that you have aspirations to grow a business. And I think watching your business savvy has been so inspiring to me because you can be the girl in a linen jumpsuit and Birkenstocks who still is so freaking smart.

So I look at you and what you're creating and go, oh my gosh, I know what's going to happen with this business and I can't wait to see what she's going to build next. Thank you. Because it's just the beginning.

Well, you know, I'm just grateful that you let me come in and support you because it's reciprocal. So bravo, Hannah.

Next week, we're talking to a founder who took something so ordinary and turned it into a multi-million dollar business.

Can you guess who it is? I feel really confident this one will inspire you to look at what's around you and see what you can build too. I'll see you next week.

The funniest thing about it is I had never invested in something before. So I had received a gift basket from my friend Drew. Had I just had my baby or I was pregnant? I think you were still pregnant. I don't think you'd had Lily yet. Yes. So it would have been at the beginning of that year. And then months later is when I, yeah.

So you saw me when I was very pregnant and my friend sent over this gift basket filled with an assortment of products that he thought I would like. No skin in the game. He just said, you know, I know that you are attuned to and like Ayurvedic things. I know that, oh yeah, that would make sense. I know that you're pregnant and these things might be helpful during this stage of pregnancy.

And one of the things within this big basket was this product. And I said, a turmeric latte? You just add water? Okay. And I tried it, and I looked at the back. I said, who is this person? And then I started trying to dig into, like, what is this company? But it's so bizarre because I had never – I didn't have a portfolio at the time. I didn't have a roster of female founders that I invested in.

It was the first and truly organic – all puns intended –

experience of looking at something and saying I want to support this and I didn't even know you were a female founder at the time I didn't know who was behind it and I remember when you came to the house we were sitting outside and I just remember you kept shifting your feet in and out of your Birkenstocks and I thought oh my gosh is this my first investment and

And you weren't really pitching me. I didn't know how to pitch. No, but also I wasn't asking for a pitch. I came to you. Do you remember I said to you, I was like, I was watching a lot of Shark Tank at the time. And I said, this is not Shark Tank. Think of this as Dolphin Tank. Yes. These are very friendly. These are very friendly waters.

By the way, I wear Birks at home. I think it's a really smart choice. There was no shame in your game. I was just struck by the fact that you were so comfortable in who you were. And yet at the same time, this was new for both of us. It was so new. So I wanted to make sure it's a sound investment because I'm putting real capital towards it. And at the same time...

you're looking at it, I imagine through the lens of, but this is my baby that I've created. And do I want to give any of it away? And do I need this? And what do I actually want? So let's start at where it began, right?

Of you making these super lattes, what went into a super latte, why they were so super, but the why behind it, and even where you were selling them so people can understand where it started and where you are now.

Wait, what do you mean by strange child? Do you think you were strange or you were called strange?

So you're having this experience in school. You're feeling like maybe you don't necessarily fit in. But at the same time, as I learned, you were entrepreneurial then. Yes. Even at seven or eight, what were you doing at that time?

Why California?

Oh my gosh. And see, when my plane would touch down at LAX and I was going back and forth when I was filming in Toronto for a long time, I didn't have that soundtrack in my head. I would always hear Joni Mitchell.

This is a Hannah I do not know. I know. Well, I've never told you this. I can't even... I can't even... Oh, yes, because I'm your investor. You're like, I'm not going to talk to you about all my loving days. I wasn't going to open with that. Yeah, please, you're going to get a cap table if you're an investor, sure. I mean, of course you weren't going to tell me that.

So you get on the other side of the pond, you come out here, you meet a whole different vibe and energy around you and you start hiking and you start seeing the world through a different lens. And then what happens?

That's beautiful. And grounding, it sounds like.

But so then how do you come from an environment that feels so, dare I say, hippy-dippy, relaxed, super non-entrepreneurial? Yes. Non-commercially minded, just about being together, community healing of the earth into translating that and somehow combining it to that same impulse that has always been that spark inside of you to turn it into something that's more business-minded.

How does that happen?

I'm Megan. This is Confessions of a Female Founder, a show where I chat with female entrepreneurs and friends about the sleepless nights, the lessons learned, and the laser focus that got them to where they are today. Business doesn't work unless people believe in you. Your team, your investors, your customers.

Well, and also, Hannah, I'll just jump in because I think a lot of people when they hear mushrooms, they go, okay, she's talking about being hippy dippy and grounded and all these things. And If you aren't familiar with adaptogens, you can go to this place of, oh, it's feeling a little psychedelic and super woo-woo.

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Confessions of a Female Founder is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by Megan. Our producers are Catherine Barnes and Oja Lopez. Kristen Lepore is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Stephanie Littles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and Megan. Mix and sound design are by Johnny Vince Evans. Rachel Neal is our VP of new content and production.

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So beautiful. Oh, I wasn't expecting that one. Yeah, they're just the great. They're just, it's just so great. This is why it's so nice to not have makeup on. Thank you. We spend so much of our life trying to prove something. To prove that you're enough. You have to prove that you're pretty enough. You have to prove that you're smart enough.

So what were the big shows and things that were on then? Baywatch. Nice. And so it was like Carmen Electra, Jenny Garth, like all these people, Yasmine Bleeth. And I was taking the trash out from my job. And I see Yasmine Bleeth. and I cannot believe I'm seeing Yasmine Plea, then I'm holding this bag of trash. And I was like, the courage that it took for me to go up to her.

And I went up to her and I said, hi, I love you in the soft and dry deodorant commercial. That's all that could come out of my mouth. And she was so gracious. This was such a pivotal moment for me because I never knew I was gonna become an actor or someone that people would go up to. But this moment was so influential for me because she turned around and she goes, hi, sweetheart, what's your name?

First thing I learned, I was like, I'm Megan. And that moment I was like, she cares to know what my name is. And then she's like, hi, I'm Yasmeen. I know who she is, but she introduced herself. All those years later, no one teaches you how to be an actor once the show becomes successful. No one teaches you what to do when people recognize you.

That moment with Yasmine Bleeth taught me how important it was for someone to make me feel seen and not brushed off. And she might have been asked a hundred times that day for a picture or anything else. And it always stayed with me. I go, hi, what's your name? Good to meet you. I'm Megan. You always do that. I see you do that all the time. Yes. Because I know how much it means.

So I guess that's a really small example of at this scale, I check in with my young girl self because I want to know how I would want to feel in that moment. I want to know who I would want to look up to in that moment and how I could mimic that behavior, echo that. And yeah, it's a big privilege. It's a big privilege. It comes with a lot of responsibility.

And I just, I want everyone to feel like they matter.

Someone said to me last year when I sat down, they said, well, you know, this is your sole contract. You signed up for this. You signed up for this before you were here. I was like, well, I didn't read the fine print. Okay. To be clear, like, can I redline this and amend the small print? Because I signed up for this. You're like, no, you signed up for this. You signed up for this.

This is your hand and this is your lap around the sun or whatever you want to look at it as because you can do this. And yeah. I guess on days that are hard, that's really grounding and affirming to remember. And then some days I'm just like, oh my gosh, what is this life? I would have never predicted it, but I'm grateful for it. Even on the hardest days. Yeah. Even on the hardest days.

Because it's you. And to me that means, of course I trust you. But because... I think you feel really confident that it was divinely ordered. Maybe all of this, our friendship, you becoming our neighbor, the depth of our friendship, and then these opportunities that we both have to be able to uplift each other and celebrate the work that we're doing. But to have never done a podcast, I mean...

And then to say, great, let's do it like, literally let's let people who are watching this feel like they're just sitting with us at your house as we would do. Great, we've done drop off. Okay, the day is done. The kids are in the bath. Can we just carve out time and sit and relax?

And I liked the idea of being able to be so authentically myself with someone who knows me in such a deep and profound way. And I think that's where you can meet people on a really, really pure connected level. When you were saying like, do you want to just do like cozies and no makeup? I like the idea of like, okay, great. Let's let them see us. See our friendship. See us.

See what it's really like.

I love that. And I appreciate it because if it's the newness of our friendship, you're able to see that and think about the friends I've had for a really long time and their experience of watching it and going, Oh my gosh. And then people that I reconnect with all these years later who literally can go, but you're the same. You're the same. Like, I know. Yeah. I know. Yeah.

And how hard that is when I'm like, but I'm the same. But that's not what gets clicks or sells papers. So they need to do something else. But you're like, hey guys, I'm still just still here doing the same stuff.

It's not about the grandeur of a gesture. It's about I see you. I'm nurturing you and I see you so deeply and I love being able to see your growth. That man loves me so much and... You know, look what we built. We built a beautiful life, and we have two healthy, beautiful children. That's my husband.

And how it breaks through. Yes. And that people can't decipher what's real or what's not. Yes. And... I think it's really hard for people to understand that even in this day and age, that things can be printed that just aren't true. I think that's really hard to wrap your head around, especially the volume that it happens when it comes to me.

He's just out there, just constant, like he's just going to do whatever he can to make sure that our family is safe and protected and we're uplifted and still make time for date nights. Are you in love now more than ever? So I feel like it's more of a honeymoon period for us now. He's also a fox, if you haven't noticed. My husband's very, very handsome. that his heart is even more beautiful.

I just have created such a strong boundary for myself. And even we go like, no, no, but it's a good one. It's like, There was this quote that I had up in my trailer when I was on Suits. Talk about being a soothsayer if it's divinely ordered. How on earth would this be the quote that I had printed up in my trailer? And I was on that show for almost seven years.

And it says, I've already settled it for myself. So flattery and criticism go down the same drain. And I'm quite free. Yeah. And it's a very hard thing to put into action to actually integrate. Yeah. But it's become so ingrained in my mind because it was there before it actually applied to me on a level like this. I've really tried to distance myself from all of it. And that has challenges too.

It does. I'm oblivious to a lot of things, but that allows me to live my life really authentically, make choices authentically. but it also allows me to be really detached from the outcome. I go, I can just show up. I can put good work out there. I feel confident with what we've created and then let it go.

So to answer your question, maybe 1% of what's in the world I would see and only if it's brought to me and said like, you should really read this. You will learn something from it or this is really good insight or I think you'll appreciate how this writer or journalist really wants to get the story right. Or the text of like, hey, just sending love and checking in.

And you're like, your hackles go up. About what? What now? What is it now? What are they reading now? Why are they sending love and checking in? Yeah. You can make yourself a little bit nuts with it as opposed to maybe they are just sending love and checking in, which is why your voice notes are helpful because I can always hear your tone. Yeah. I'm always like, are you enjoying this?

Okay.

You have to prove that you're a good wife or a good friend. And I was like, I am just so done with the prove it game. And if you can't see it, I can't, I don't need to prove to you why that's your loss. Like, because I know that I'm a great friend and I know the kind of mom I am and I know the kind of human being I am.

Yes. With actors, that happens a lot too, where they say, this overnight success story. And they're saying, I have been on this grind and auditioning for 10 years and hearing no after no after no after no after no. So yes, 10 years and a night. Yeah. But to the world, it's just what has she been doing? Does she work?

as opposed to, oh my gosh, I work so hard and I appreciate what hard work looks like. I like working hard and I'm still working hard, right? The moment that everything sells out, it doesn't mean that we're done.

It means we're working on replenishment and what are the next SKUs and what's the next tranche of products and what's the timing on that and writing the newsletters and writing the social media captions and making sure that all that feels in line and what's the cadence of it and what's the photography that we want to do and what do I want to wear for those shoots while also editing all the time-coded notes for season two of With Love, Megan and then being in edits for the podcast and making...

and being a mom and a wife and a friend. Those are all jobs. I mean, I love being that busy, but I do think it's really interesting when people have no sense of what goes into the thing. And then when the thing seems as though it's like, oh, wow, huge. The thing's not done. The finish line was really the starting line.

Can you share more about that? Well, I've loved New York Times cooking and New York Times food for a long time. So that was a fun one for me. No, I need to work because it fills my cup. Also, we need to work for practical reasons. You need to work. Pay your bills. You need to work. But it...

Yeah, I love it.

For them to be able to look back and go, oh my gosh, she has loved us so much.

And that's what, you know, and I also love being with a crew and a team. So Suits, that was seven years of my life, and that's a crew of over 200 people. It's a lot of people on a team. And even on the series that I just did for Netflix, you know, when people are saying, why wouldn't you film this in your own kitchen at your own house? That's a crew of 80 people. Yeah.

Would you have 80 people in your house when your kids are coming home from school or for lunch? No. I want my home and my kitchen to be a sacred place that my kids associate with me cooking for our family.

So finding a place and really trying to not have to explain those choices, but be really confident in the choices that I've made that are in the best and highest good for me and for my family. I've always loved to work.

Oh, I've got damn memories of Sunday. Exactly. Like, oh my gosh, I look like a Costco or something. There's just boxes everywhere. Yes. And then also you have to keep in mind so that the actual brand and business is happening with all of these products that we've tested and tested and tested to scale it to what I'm making on my stove.

That's what, six years old. She makes amazing crudités and charcuterie boards.

I have a really classic aesthetic in terms of how I see things. I've never, ever considered myself artistic. So it's really odd to voice that now is all this is people are like copy my handwriting or how I put a plate together or how I put an outfit together. I've never thought of it. I don't paint. I don't. I would love, love to learn how to knit. Oh my gosh. I just can't figure it out.

I've tried forever. I'm as bad as knitting as I am at playing tennis. I'm just terrible at certain things. And I found an old report card. Oh, from when I was at Hollywood Schoolhouse. Maybe I was probably Archie's age. Oh, yes, because our kids got their report cards. So I was thinking about memory lane with that.

I'll get back to your question in a second, but you'll like this, where you're going through and that's when grades weren't A, B, C, D at that age. It's right, like satisfactory, unsatisfactory, or I don't know what the best one would be, but it came to ability to throw and catch a ball, not applicable to Oh, my gosh. It's like, well, I'm a great runner if someone is chasing me.

Otherwise, just not the most athletic. So there are certain things that we have built in as strengths. And then there are certain things that are opportunities for growth. And I've just – I love when things look beautiful. And – Even when you don't have a lot, you're able to make things look beautiful. And I think about small apartments that I've had or, you know, small tiny kitchens that I had.

Or even when I had my first apartment and I went to Northwestern in Evanston and when I moved out of the sorority that I lived in for a couple years, then I had my own little apartment. It was tiny, great little studio apartment. And that's when I would sit there and watch Food Network all the time and learn how to make certain things and make – really like how to make a pasta more special.

And you would see plating. You would see someone drizzle the olive oil on top. And somehow it elevated it beyond what I thought were, which still are, by the way, great dinners at Olive Garden, where I loved a never-ending pasta bowl. But no one was drizzling and finishing a plate. No one was making it present as beautifully as it was going to taste. And I loved...

watching people get excited about that when they'd see it. And I guess that translates into a lot of different things, but it's attention to detail. And what does attention to detail for me mean? It's kind of rooted in what people's experience of it is going to be. So it makes them happy to receive it. It makes me happier to give it to them. It does.

I knew when I dropped off that strawberry, it wasn't even preserves. I didn't have time to set. I just made a quick one because we had a lot of strawberries at the time. And I heard what you were saying and how many people were there. And I just knew that even if we never talked about it, that it would brighten your day.

in what was probably a really overwhelming day that made me feel excited at the possibility of being able to have some offering that would make you feel good. And I guess over the years, like again, back to wanting to feel seen and wanting people to feel seen, it shows that you're really listening to what their needs are. It shows that You can show up for them no matter what you have going on.

And a lot of that's probably doing the things for other people that I had missed for so long when you don't feel seen or when you feel lonely and you just want someone to like reach out in a meaningful and thoughtful way, not with a huge gesture, but something of like, no, I really like, I see you. I'm thinking about you over there.

Tiny, tiny things that really just move the needle and change someone's life. So, yeah, it brings me a lot of joy to do that. That to me is not work. That's complete, complete joy.

You're like, okay.

Probably at the beginning of us dating when everything was in code. Code, yeah. People didn't know we were dating for, talk about memory lane. So long ago. I mean, it'll be our seven-year wedding anniversary soon. I couldn't tell anyone who I was dating and who was keeping. So I think we were just on a letter basis. Yeah. And then it stuck. It stuck. It stuck.

It makes me feel really great when specifically it can help uplift brands that have a great ethos and female founders. Yeah. You know, there was a long time where I wasn't out talking. So if you couldn't hear me, how could I be heard through what I was wearing if that's what people were focusing on?

Or the choices I was making that you didn't have to say a word, but it would move product for small companies or allow... Even when we were living in the UK, small company in Scotland able to, I don't know, hire 50 more employees or small businesses who would take women out of, positions of being trafficked and instead give them jobs.

And by wearing those jeans, I knew it was going to allow them to save more women. So all of those things end up becoming a touchpoint that's really, really high value to me. And then being able to hear the stories of how it has helped them or their businesses and even just It could have been the day that they were going to give up.

Could have been the day that they're just going, why am I doing this? It's not worth it. And if I can come in with a little sprinkle of fairy dust just by wearing a bracelet or doing something and that changes the course of their business. That's a huge honor to be able to have that kind of impact for someone, someone that most of the time I would never even – I won't even know.

Yeah, to still be heard and allow – and in that, allow other people's voices to be heard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a really – That's always meant something to me. And then, you know, because I love a handwritten note, when I would end up getting handwritten notes from people from all over the world saying what it's done for their business.

Because again, if I'm not reading press even back then, someone would say like, oh yeah, that's sold out, but you had no metrics for it. What was helpful is if a letter would get to me, I'm very sentimental, so I have most of them saved. Just like, wow, how it really changed their lives. That to me, It's worth its weight in gold. Yeah.

Oh, I should be a California tourism ad because I love the state so much. I used to watch those Visit California commercials. And I remember when I started auditioning, I was like, I just want to be in a Visit California be there talking about how great this state is. I just love that within two hours you can have access to snow or beach or desert. I love the diversity of it.

We have an amazing food scene. I feel really, really lucky to have been born here. I love just being able to connect to outside and outdoors and being able to hike. And I think there's something really powerful about being connected to nature and the elements. Even if you don't go to the beach, just seeing the water, I think is really powerful. So I like the openness that it brings.

And Jamie gets out of the car. She's like, yeah. And you have your little to-go coffee cup. My to-go coffee. Do you want me to put that in the car? You're ready to go hiking. And I remember you said like, oh, when someone's at a hike. Are you just walking around a reservoir or something?

The Grand Slam breakfast.

I feel that, right? I feel that every day in how supportive he's been. And is, but I didn't know he said that. So that's really nice because I think having a partner, I mean, I asked you this when you were on my podcast, like, do you think that you would have been able to get through all the no's and the challenges if you were doing it solo, if you didn't have the support of Paolo?

And there's something that is... not to be taken for granted when you have a partner and a spouse who is just so behind you. I mean, H, that man loves me so much. You know, look what we built. We've built a beautiful life and we have two healthy, beautiful children. And, you know, and I always think about it like the end of Super Mario Brothers when you get to the final, final level.

And what's the goal in Super Mario? They're like, slay the dragon, save the princess. I'm like, that's my husband. He's just out there just constant. Like he's just going to do whatever he can to make sure that our family is safe and protected and we're uplifted and still make time for date nights.

Yeah. I mean, you have to imagine at the beginning, everyone is like butterflies. And then we immediately went into the trenches together.

Right out of the gate, like six months into dating. So now seven years later, when you have a little bit of breathing space... You can just enjoy each other in a new way. And that's why I feel like it's more of a honeymoon period for us now. Yeah. Do you think you'll be married forever? Yes. I have a letter. He's also a fox, if you haven't noticed. My husband's very, very handsome.

But his heart is even more beautiful.

Yeah.

Was this in the press also?

Is this from this morning?

Oh. From Archie and Lily via Papa. We love your cooking. We love your pancakes. And we love, love, love your hugs. You're the best mummy and we love you. So sweet. I also love that it's mummy, which is very British instead of mommy. Oh, yeah, they're the greatest.

I think a lot of it is being a soundboard, especially because I don't read media or press. I'm a good barometer of just sometimes maybe just a very removed point of view because I'm only looking at it through the lens of loving him. What's in his best and highest good? What's in the best interest for us as a family? What will help nurture him and help him find balance?

So I think in that regard, I can hear it through a different lens because my opinion is not my opinion isn't colored by anything other than what I know from him and what I can see for our future. So, you know, I really love making him breakfast before I left. I told you Archie's homesick today. So I made him lemon, ginger, manuka honey tea, and he just really wanted bacon.

So I made a lot of bacon and then I made H a breakfast sandwich with a fried egg and two slices of American cheese all melty and lots of bacon in there.

Oh, what a great question. Yeah. I hope she says I know that they'll feel like, oh my gosh, no one has ever loved someone more than the way our mom loved us. And I put that in practice, you know, that's part of every day how I show up for them and I read a lot of parenting books. I really want to be good at it.

I think a lot of stuff comes naturally and a lot of stuff you can also just, we can all use tools. But one of our mom friends, she had said to me last year that she just created sort of secret email addresses for her kids that she'll give to them at some point in their life. And she would just send to them, you know, random pictures, the pictures that you aren't going to put in a frame. Yeah.

was such a great time capsule to create for them because I used to have scrapbooks and photo albums, but we're past that generation now. And so I'd created for the kids these email addresses that sort of like names, again, that you would never guess that I will give them at some point in their lives when they're older. But before I go to bed almost every night, I email them. Wow.

I email because it doesn't have to be a heavy lift. And you email them like, here's your report card from today. Oh, my gosh, was it the funniest thing this morning? Or here's a picture of you two having breakfast. Or here's you playing with the things that you're not going to frame, the things that you're not going to put pen to paper in a journal.

But they will end up at one point in their life, maybe when they're 16 or when they're 18, that I say, here's an email that I've been keeping for you. I have full body chills right now. For your whole life. And here's everything and every moment that I wanted to tell you how much I love you and like how proud I am of you and of all things that's making me emotional.

For them to be able to look back and go, oh my gosh, she has loved us so much. And that's, I think, the best part about being a mom. And we go back to like a love language or gifts. It's not about the grandeur of a gesture. It's about I see you. I'm nurturing you and I see you so deeply. And I love being able to see your growth and I'm just so proud of them. That's so beautiful.

Oh, I wasn't expecting that one. Yeah, they're just the great, they're just, it's just so great. This is why it's so nice to not have makeup on. Thank you. It's the greatest gift you can give. That's the gift that will cost you nothing. And it will mean everything to your children. You do it for your partner too.

Yeah.

And it's your heart every day that you're giving to them in that way. And it becomes meditative for me too, but also like I do a lot of voice notes of the kids. So I'll just have my phone on as I'm putting them down to bed because their voices are going to change so much. So it's like they went through that stage where they were so little and they would go, mama, can I hold you?

Because they didn't know. It was like, mama, can you hold me? And I knew one day it would change, but I have it. So I send them those voices like, here you are too saying this. Here's you singing a lullaby tonight. Like you got the voice note and then you emailed it? Yes. It doesn't have to be a video. It doesn't have to be something.

It's just you're capturing these moments, these tender moments that are going to go by like this. And also I find that when I do it, like You know, one of the things with parenting you watch as you're building their confidence and their self-esteem, a word that I use a lot with them is yet, you know, and how to reframe things for a kid when they're like, I can't do it. I can't do it yet.

No, I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough yet. And the more that you put into practice these ideas of like put yet at the end of nearly every sentence and you feel like there's still hope and a promise that you can do it. Yes. But when I type that to my children before I go to bed, guess what? I'm teaching that to them or I'm reinforcing that, but I'm also reinforcing it for myself. Yes.

I don't know yet. Yet.

Not unworthy. Sometimes I feel very self-conscious. I don't know. I think I'm at a very different chapter. We've talked about this when you're out at the prove it game. Yes. Will you share more? I don't know, what were we texting about one night? You texted me something. And I said, no, there comes a point where I don't even have that text. And you said, you have to email that text to yourself.

You have to remember that. That should go in a book one day. Yes. But this idea that we spend so much of our life trying to prove something.

to prove that you're enough you have to prove that you're pretty enough you have to prove that you're smart enough you prove that you're a good wife or a good friend or and I was like I am just so done with the prove it game when you get to the place where you feel I don't have to prove anything to you anymore I don't have to prove that I'm a good person I don't have to prove to you that I'm a good wife or mom or friend I don't have to prove that I work hard

And it can be really freeing when you stop playing the prove it game. You're proving nothing to anyone other than to yourself. And that takes a lot of time and that takes a lot of pain and at least in my own experience. But to just really go and not with an energy of like, I'm over it. I don't care. No, I care. But I don't have to prove it to you.

And if you can't see it, I can't, I don't need to prove to you why that's your loss. Like, because I know that I'm a great friend and I know the kind of mom I am and I know the kind of human being I am. I know how I show up and I love being able to be that person with the people that I love.

So, you know, worthiness, maybe part of worthiness comes when you stop having to feel like you're in the prove it game.

A really cute, clever name.

I know how I show up and I love being able to be that person with the people that I love. So, you know, worthiness, maybe part of worthiness comes when you stop having to feel like you're in the proofing game.

Well, I didn't see it. She texted me. Oh, did she? Oh my gosh. She's like, yeah. She texted me and she said, oh my gosh, like I did this interview and I can't like... I can't remember verbatim what she said, but she was like, I give up. I don't even know what to say anymore. And I said, well, I didn't hear about it. Hadn't heard about it at all.

And then because, you know, not because people are hiding things from me, but maybe because it's not something that anyone felt needed to be on my radar.

And I just texted her back. I was like, I hear there's something about pie. And then we ended up, she was doing something on Instagram. So I ordered some pie on Instacart. We sat there and ate some pie and laughed and caught up a little bit. And then I came back home.

when I saw it. Yeah. People, I think women were really fired up of like, yes, clap back enough. Yes.

I loved it. And also with the sense of humor. Yeah. Because it really diffuses so much of it. There's only so many statements you can make or things you can say on the record, or this didn't happen. Or as it was like, you guys, like it kind of,