Mehdi Hassan

then it does become about communication.

And how much education is there of the public on this issue?

How much are politicians willing to call out the lies and disinformation and take a strong position?

Yeah, so I'm more in the first camp than the second, though I recognise the political pitfalls of that.

You don't want to tell the voters they're wrong.

Obviously, in those ways, that's just not the way you win elections.

On the other hand, constantly conceding to your opponent's framing of an issue, constantly fighting battles on your opponent's terrain is not the way you go forward.

If that was the way forward, then why are we still in this mess 20 years after Tony Blair was triangulating on this issue?

These are not new issues.

I mean, I'm old enough to remember New Labour was talking about all this stuff.

Tony Blair was saying we're going to crack down on asylum seekers, vouchers for asylum seekers.

David Blunkett talking about the swamping of schools.

I'm that old to remember 25 years ago what was going on in this country.

So it clearly didn't work.

And I think if you look across the West, the centre-left's approach to this, which is trying to meet the right halfway, trying to do this while they have legitimate concerns.

Let's not say the vote.

That hasn't worked.

It's not that they shouldn't do it.

It hasn't worked.

I think you have to start from a starting point.