Michael Barbaro

is where most Americans are.

And I ask that because I have some inside information from my colleagues in the newsroom and the Washington Bureau who saw a memo that you circulated to some of your colleagues in the Democratic caucus of the Senate making the case that there is a right way to talk about this that involves

both criticizing immigration enforcement as it currently exists, while also establishing some firm understandings about what is wrong with illegal immigration and where enforcement needs to be very tough.

Okay, so they want an effective – this polling shows that voters want an effective ICE that follows the rules, but that does its job particularly when it comes to detaining, deporting criminal immigrants who are here illegally.

That's right.

That's what you found.

I want to go back to the last shutdown as a point of reference.

Leaders of your party, like Senator Chuck Schumer, they believe that ultimately that shutdown, which you didn't support, but it sounds like you gained some valuable lessons from, that that was a political victory in the way that it elevated the issue of rising healthcare costs and put it on Republicans.

But even as a victory politically, it did not result in policy changes.

If this shutdown of DHS becomes something like that, a messaging win without policy changes that you're asking for, would you be satisfied with that?

So even if you don't win these reforms, you may win the argument.

And winning the argument might then mean winning the election.

And then you can, in your mind, change the way this administration operates when it comes to immigration enforcement.

Let's say for a moment that you do end up getting what you want at some point from the administration.

You do end up with some understanding that the masks might come off these agents, that they're going to be using warrants and they're going to be identifying themselves, you know, with badges as they go about their work.

Even if you get all that with agencies like ICE and with Border Patrol agents,

given the way they have operated, and given the rhetoric from the president, given the conduct that you have described as heinous, you've called some of these folks thugs, even if you get these reforms, will these be agencies and agents that you can have faith in?

Or is the problem here a lot bigger than

Senator, how does this shutdown come to an end?

Or does it not come to an end until after the midterms?