Michael Barbaro

You've made clear that you see this as a question of what good law enforcement is and what it isn't, and that right now immigration enforcement operations represent bad law enforcement to you.

But to some meaningful percentage of voters, this could end up looking like something else.

which is potentially Democrats being weak on immigration.

Full stop.

I mean, you're conceding that.

But by defunding the agency that oversees immigration enforcement, including at the border, how do you avoid the perception that

that you are making that work, which as you just acknowledged, Democrats are not known for being effective enough at.

How do you avoid making that work harder or and less effective?

Right.

In a sense, you're saying don't overfund them.

But in making the argument you're making,

You're drawing an interesting distinction.

You're suggesting that many voters want and expect a certain conduct from immigration enforcement agents and that they want enforcement to be focused on criminals.

We've talked to plenty of people on this show, and from what you said, you're a listener.

Voters who want interior enforcement based on the fact that they believe illegally crossing the border into the U.S.

itself is a crime.

And so...

In making the distinctions that you are, are you in a certain sense potentially creating an incentive, the incentive that Democrats have been criticized for creating, which is you can come to the United States, you can come illegally, and you can stay?

And isn't that what President Trump won his election in part based on?

How confident are you that the position you're articulating here is