Michael Barbaro

Right. A kind of a case is made, data is assembled, votes are taken kind of thing.

The fact that RFK Jr. did this would seem to raise two possibilities. The first is that he and those around him decided that all of this was inevitable, that government recommendations for COVID vaccines were going to get less and less popular. strict over time, and that he just wants to circumvent the process to get it there.

The fact that RFK Jr. did this would seem to raise two possibilities. The first is that he and those around him decided that all of this was inevitable, that government recommendations for COVID vaccines were going to get less and less popular. strict over time, and that he just wants to circumvent the process to get it there.

The other possibility is that he kind of just hijacked the process and took it upon himself to issue recommendations that would normally go through a careful, considered process filled with medical expertise.

The other possibility is that he kind of just hijacked the process and took it upon himself to issue recommendations that would normally go through a careful, considered process filled with medical expertise.

Well, let me challenge you on that. I mean, so far in this administration, is that so strange? It is a presidency where decision-making is extremely centralized in a small group of people who make decisions sometimes not based entirely on a formal process, sometimes on instinct, but with a fair amount of confidence in the rightness of what they're doing.

Well, let me challenge you on that. I mean, so far in this administration, is that so strange? It is a presidency where decision-making is extremely centralized in a small group of people who make decisions sometimes not based entirely on a formal process, sometimes on instinct, but with a fair amount of confidence in the rightness of what they're doing.

I'm curious if you think there's going to be meaningful opposition to these new recommendations, especially given the process that you just outlined and the process that was bypassed. Could this produce lawsuits? Could this produce medical establishments issuing contrary recommendations to the federal government, which in theory could create a whole lot of confusion?

I'm curious if you think there's going to be meaningful opposition to these new recommendations, especially given the process that you just outlined and the process that was bypassed. Could this produce lawsuits? Could this produce medical establishments issuing contrary recommendations to the federal government, which in theory could create a whole lot of confusion?

Mm-hmm. Well, let's talk about that. Vaccine use in this country is way, way down. You've talked about that on the show before. I'm curious what you suspect is going to happen as a result of these recommendations with COVID vaccine uptake and, more broadly, vaccine uptake.

Mm-hmm. Well, let's talk about that. Vaccine use in this country is way, way down. You've talked about that on the show before. I'm curious what you suspect is going to happen as a result of these recommendations with COVID vaccine uptake and, more broadly, vaccine uptake.

Right.

Right.

So in a world where COVID returns with a vengeance, which could happen, it might not happen, under this administration, the lack of government recommendations for vaccines... especially for healthy children, pregnant women, means more people are going to be vulnerable. And potentially, the lack of approval for the vaccines means fewer doses of vaccine at the ready. That's the situation.

So in a world where COVID returns with a vengeance, which could happen, it might not happen, under this administration, the lack of government recommendations for vaccines... especially for healthy children, pregnant women, means more people are going to be vulnerable. And potentially, the lack of approval for the vaccines means fewer doses of vaccine at the ready. That's the situation.

Of course, time will tell whether COVID ever returns with real ferocity. And if it doesn't, this new recommendation might seem, to many, quite reasonable.

Of course, time will tell whether COVID ever returns with real ferocity. And if it doesn't, this new recommendation might seem, to many, quite reasonable.

But at the end of the day, it feels like the meaning of what happened on Tuesday is that the Trump administration's overall approach to vaccines, putting less emphasis on them, questioning whether they have been too widely recommended, that is now official government policy. And I was struck, and I wonder if you were, Apoorva, by the very last line of the video that was put out on Tuesday.

But at the end of the day, it feels like the meaning of what happened on Tuesday is that the Trump administration's overall approach to vaccines, putting less emphasis on them, questioning whether they have been too widely recommended, that is now official government policy. And I was struck, and I wonder if you were, Apoorva, by the very last line of the video that was put out on Tuesday.

And the quote was, that ending the existing recommendations for children, for pregnant women, brings the United States, quote, one step closer to realizing President Trump's promise to make America healthy again. And it felt notable that the government's health agencies were articulating this idea that not getting a vaccine was part of making America healthy again.