Michael Barbaro

Shutdowns involve a lot of pain, a lot of unintended pain.

Workers don't get paid, but a lot of them have to work anyway.

So services become strained.

In the case of DHS, that means services like

airport security, TSA, cybersecurity, FEMA, Coast Guard.

And you all have made a decision that you know will probably cause some of that unintended pain.

And I want to know why you think it's worth it to do this.

Well, Senator, we're going to take a break.

And when we come back, I want to engage with the challenges that Democrats, including you, may face in explaining what this shutdown is and what it isn't to the public.

We'll be right back.

Senator, I want to turn now to a fundamental challenge for you and your party when it comes to this shutdown of DHS.

You've made clear that you see this as a question of what good law enforcement is and what it isn't, and that right now immigration enforcement operations represent bad law enforcement to you.

But to some meaningful percentage of voters, this could end up looking like something else.

which is potentially Democrats being weak on immigration.

Full stop.

I mean, you're conceding that.

But by defunding the agency that oversees immigration enforcement, including at the border, how do you avoid the perception that

that you are making that work, which as you just acknowledged, Democrats are not known for being effective enough at.

How do you avoid making that work harder or and less effective?

Right.