Michael Bavaro

Pretty important agencies.

And in the case of something like TSA and FEMA, when there's a crisis, highly visible ones.

So then just explain how Democrats are talking about the logic of taking away the Department of Homeland Security's funding if that action doesn't take away the funding for the things that they want to defund, ICE, etc., and would take away funding from things that they probably want to keep funding.

The health care shutdown, as you're saying, is seen within the Democratic Party as a political victory and perhaps therefore a model for how to handle DHS funding.

But it seems worth noting that that shutdown over health care didn't really get Democrats the policy changes that they wanted.

They didn't get Republicans and the president to sign off on enhanced health care incentives.

That didn't happen, but it demonstrated the party's willingness to stand up to the president on a signature issue.

In that last shutdown over healthcare, it was the Democrats who started it and ended it when a few Democratic senators caved.

They went around Chuck Schumer and they worked with the president and Republicans to end the shutdown because they felt that the pain from it was becoming too big.

They worried the public was going to be turning on them.

Is that a risk here again for Democratic leaders?

Democratic lawmakers kind of lose their will?

So let's turn to congressional Republicans and to the president, who no doubt have expected this partial DHS shutdown to happen.

Once it officially gets underway, given the political realities and the resolve that you just described, what is their plan?

Michael, there's a risk that we haven't talked about that I'd like to end our conversation on here for the Democrats, which is that President Trump finds a way to make the case to the public that Democrats are weak on illegal immigration.

And Democrats don't need to look very far in the past to see how effective that argument can be from the president.

The entire 2024 presidential election seemed like an exercise in Democrats failing to meet the moment on immigration for lots of American voters.

And the act of trying to defund ICE, even if it doesn't end up defunding ICE—

might make the case for the president and for the public that Democrats are out of sync with the country on illegal immigration and that they're against law enforcement.

So is that something that we may end up seeing play out here and that would backfire on the Democrats in a way that perhaps will really make them regret this plan?