Michael Malice

The idea when the Industrial Revolution came and Marx was very much a product of Industrial Revolutionary thinking was, okay, now that we have technology, now that we have science, we can scientifically manage society.

We saw this very much with Woodrow Wilson and this kind of idea of progressivism that we could use technology.

technology and capitalism, in their view, unfettered capitalism was wasteful.

You're making too much stuff.

You have surpluses.

You have shortages.

If we produce just exactly what we need and you have these people, engineers, the engineering society, then everyone will be happy and you won't have to have any suffering or waste.

So socialism at that time was used as a broad umbrella for

It's not used in the term that it means today of necessarily state socialism.

It just meant the idea of having society scientifically run.

So you had a huge argument.

There are different wings.

You even had it from the beginning with Marx versus Bakunin because Marx was for obviously state socialism, the absolute state running everything.

Although even with Marx and Engels, it was a means to an end.

After man is remade,

in his very nature, then the state withers away and everyone's equal and you have this kind of heaven on earth situation.

But Koonin was the opposite.

He regarded the state as inherently immoral and wanted to have kind of like workers collectives and things like that and ultra localized control.

Well, I think at least Marx and Koonin, there were plenty of others who just regarded it, have the work, have state owner, have the workers control

the production via the state.