Michael Pollan

But it won't happen if I'm looking at a screen.

Right.

And so it's made me think about how...

If we wanted humans to be more productive, more creative, more, I think a lot of our received beliefs about this are really wrong.

We'd want to put people more in touch with their bodies.

We'd want to teach them how to find states of open association and mind-watering.

You want to put yourself in the way of inspiration more often because it's not controllable in the way we wish it were.

Let's not be too hasty in...

And diminishing the importance of informational input here.

As the book evolves, you start widening to less and less goal-oriented theories of consciousness.

And one thing that is happening throughout the book that you're very attentive to

is first, the number of scientists of consciousness, scientists of the mind, who are now dabbling in various forms of psychedelics.

Yeah, that was a surprise to me.

And two, well, you've sort of, part of the reason it's happening, so it shouldn't be that surprising.

Yeah, it's quite a role you've created for yourself in public life.

And to the way that is upending their theories of consciousness.

I mean, you have a number of scientists who come in out through the book who are saying, well, I thought this and then I had this experience.

And I think it's really interesting, the felt experience of truth on something that people who up until that moment would only accept what they could prove and were reducing everything to the provable.

Like they know they ingested a chemical, right?

And yet, what that felt like, they're not willing to dismiss.