Michael Shellenberger

That seemed like a great system to me. It's great. I mean, that's what I love. I mean, it's the part I love about California. It's like, I lived on the East Coast for like a year. It was a traumatic experience. You'd go to parties and someone would be like, oh, what school did you go to? Oh, totally. Totally. And then they'd be kind of looking over your shoulder and you're like, well, what?

That seemed like a great system to me. It's great. I mean, that's what I love. I mean, it's the part I love about California. It's like, I lived on the East Coast for like a year. It was a traumatic experience. You'd go to parties and someone would be like, oh, what school did you go to? Oh, totally. Totally. And then they'd be kind of looking over your shoulder and you're like, well, what?

That seemed like a great system to me. It's great. I mean, that's what I love. I mean, it's the part I love about California. It's like, I lived on the East Coast for like a year. It was a traumatic experience. You'd go to parties and someone would be like, oh, what school did you go to? Oh, totally. Totally. And then they'd be kind of looking over your shoulder and you're like, well, what?

Like, who cares what school I went to? Like, you know, who am I? Exactly. Where are my passions? Exactly. So that was like I was like, wow, that is like that is weird. You know, in California, it's like, what's your jam, dude? You know, it's like really like, what are you into? You know, it's that's like the best of it. Who are you as a person? Yeah. Who are you as a person? It's the human.

Like, who cares what school I went to? Like, you know, who am I? Exactly. Where are my passions? Exactly. So that was like I was like, wow, that is like that is weird. You know, in California, it's like, what's your jam, dude? You know, it's like really like, what are you into? You know, it's that's like the best of it. Who are you as a person? Yeah. Who are you as a person? It's the human.

Like, who cares what school I went to? Like, you know, who am I? Exactly. Where are my passions? Exactly. So that was like I was like, wow, that is like that is weird. You know, in California, it's like, what's your jam, dude? You know, it's like really like, what are you into? You know, it's that's like the best of it. Who are you as a person? Yeah. Who are you as a person? It's the human.

You know, it's like obviously there you can get culty and whatever. But I mean, it is the best of that human potential.

You know, it's like obviously there you can get culty and whatever. But I mean, it is the best of that human potential.

You know, it's like obviously there you can get culty and whatever. But I mean, it is the best of that human potential.

Right. Your decency. Which is actually radical individual responsibility.

Right. Your decency. Which is actually radical individual responsibility.

Right. Your decency. Which is actually radical individual responsibility.

Yeah. I mean, that was always, for me, it was like, you know, Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, was this incredibly Holocaust survivor. The whole thing was like, you know, being in a death camp shouldn't control how I think about the world. I mean, that's about as radical of an individual mentality as... point of view.

Yeah. I mean, that was always, for me, it was like, you know, Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, was this incredibly Holocaust survivor. The whole thing was like, you know, being in a death camp shouldn't control how I think about the world. I mean, that's about as radical of an individual mentality as... point of view.

Yeah. I mean, that was always, for me, it was like, you know, Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, was this incredibly Holocaust survivor. The whole thing was like, you know, being in a death camp shouldn't control how I think about the world. I mean, that's about as radical of an individual mentality as... point of view.

And now, of course, that's viewed as very right-wing and very unsympathetic and whatever. But Viktor Frankl was just loved by the existentialist California left in the 60s. I mean, he would sell out these huge auditorium in Berkeley and they would, you know, they'd go to Esalen. And so, I mean, you go from that to basically nobody taking responsibility. I mean, it's incredible.

And now, of course, that's viewed as very right-wing and very unsympathetic and whatever. But Viktor Frankl was just loved by the existentialist California left in the 60s. I mean, he would sell out these huge auditorium in Berkeley and they would, you know, they'd go to Esalen. And so, I mean, you go from that to basically nobody taking responsibility. I mean, it's incredible.

And now, of course, that's viewed as very right-wing and very unsympathetic and whatever. But Viktor Frankl was just loved by the existentialist California left in the 60s. I mean, he would sell out these huge auditorium in Berkeley and they would, you know, they'd go to Esalen. And so, I mean, you go from that to basically nobody taking responsibility. I mean, it's incredible.

Is it not? That's so well-spoken. No, no, it's totally brilliantly well-spoken. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's like we, in our next book, we're working on this idea of these singularities, meaning like these just awful events in the past, the Holocaust, slavery, indigenous genocide. Yes. And they become like gods for secular people. They become like super present.

Is it not? That's so well-spoken. No, no, it's totally brilliantly well-spoken. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's like we, in our next book, we're working on this idea of these singularities, meaning like these just awful events in the past, the Holocaust, slavery, indigenous genocide. Yes. And they become like gods for secular people. They become like super present.