Mike McCain
Appearances
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I'll throw out my thoughts. John is a legend. We're very glad to have his talent and collaboration on. Gosh, I mean, everything we've made in the past decade.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
It's sort of like I don't know how to give you a generalized answer to that question because I know our way of doing it is to talk to John. Yeah, just go to John. That's a good thing to have.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, yeah. So I'm Mike McCain. I'm the executive producer here at Hairbrained.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
We've both been with the studio. We've been making games together since 2011. That's when Harebrained was founded. We're probably best known for Shadowrun, Battletech. Those are two of our big games on Steam. Had over millions of players for both. And yeah, that's kind of our story. We've made a lot of different games over the years. I think a big through line for us is just
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Uh, yeah, a little bit different every time. Uh, you know, I think it's, it's, it's always a conversation, you know, with ourselves, with our team. Uh, it's, it's, it's even, you know, it's not necessarily like literally a conversation with the audience, but it is, it's a lot of like looking at, at where the audience is, where we are as gamers. Um, and, and just, um,
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
you know, I think as a commercial artist, you're always trying to find that intersection between what are you good at? What are you passionate about? And what is the audience ready for? Like what, what did they want to spend money on? And, uh, And, you know, it takes some workshopping and you throw a lot of ideas around and you see what sticks.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
But with Graft, like really, really just like, you know, I think we're both really, really excited that we found that sort of like, man, I'm waking up every day excited to work on this. And I think, you know, I think there's some players out there that'll enjoy it too. Yeah.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
we love bringing these great game worlds to life. And then we love giving you guys, you know, players like you as much agency as we can within those worlds to play the way that you want to play. So that's, that's us.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I mean, we love this stuff. Yeah. Chris.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
You grew up on like this, the big, uh, like the, the big, uh, cyberpunk, uh, or kind of anime vibes and, and all that stuff.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of writing and drawing and painting and prototyping. And it's kind of all happening at once. And this is that sort of like...
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
chaotic but also exhilarating like initial inception of an idea right like because chris and i like we our backgrounds both in art so so a lot of our entry point that explains this really awesome yeah that's true well thank you so that's our entry point right like we're trying to imagine it and paint it and figure out like what what are the vibes like what are we conveying in the
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
the imagery of this world, we're also working with our writer, Andrew McIntosh, And just really trying to understand what are the core principles of this world? How does it work? What does the player know? What does the player not know? There's a lot that the player won't know going into this world. And we love that stuff, right? It's just so exciting to have these vast mysteries to dig into.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
So yeah, it's a lot of... It's a lot of exploration and seeing what resonates.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Only every third day. No, I mean, it's been great, right? Like time flies when you're having fun. Apparently we've, we've shipped probably like, well, like 10 or 11 games and DLCs together at this point. It's been a journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
There's something I said a lot on Battletech, and it's pretty reductive, but games are bad until they're good, right? There's a real humility to sort of the creative process and what it takes to iterate until you've arrived at that great thing that sort of stands the test within the team of what's really going to stick and be compelling for us, and then...
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Chris is really good at keeping that bird's eye vision on the game and how it's resonating. The one thing about art is you get into the making of the thing and whatever part you're making...
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
you need the rest of the team to help keep you anchored to an honest perspective on the thing because you get into the nitty-gritty like i'm in a painting like i will either love or hate that painting by the end of it but neither of those emotions is an objective reaction to it um yeah yeah so
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's a lot of different factors going into that. I think certainly timing was a big thing, right? Kickstarter first came on either late 2011 or 2012. I think there was a lot of energy around this. It was very novel to have this degree of community involvement
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
early participation in funding a title and there's a lot of stuff that the sort of uh triple a or kind of the i guess call it mainstream game industry hadn't really invested in certain ips that that still had a lot of uh a strong you know core following like chaperone like battle tech um
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
So I think there was this really exciting initial opportunity, like fresh way to fund games, some untapped titles that hadn't been released
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
hadn't been a shadowrun game in a while um and or a story different one anyways uh and uh and so you know we were able to ride that wave really grateful for that had a just amazing community um rally behind both of those games i do think as kickstarter progressed over the years like Some of the initial novelty just wears off, right? That's part of the normal life cycle for a lot of these things.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I do think that there are some high-profile Kickstarters that ran into trouble for whatever reason, weren't able to deliver on their rewards, so...
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
or all of them so i think you know there's a little bit more caution going into kickstarters after a few years of of measuring the results compared to you know the blue sky of kickstarter's amazing right at the start yeah um and then and then you know there's also uh there's also unfortunately just this like calibration of expectations around um
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
what it takes to make a game versus what is possible to raise on Kickstarter and, and, you know, games are expensive to make. And, and I think that, and, and Kickstarter, you know, don't forget, like you're paying some fees into making the crowdfunding possible. And then you're also paying to fulfill whatever awards you've promised. Right. And, and, We were so fortunate.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Jordan, our founder, has a long history. He's made tabletop games. He's done a lot of physical goods fulfillment over the years. But if you're running a campaign back then and you didn't have that experience, I do think there were some people that got overcommitted on the amount of backpacks or figurines or whatever they were going to send out.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
So it all, you know, it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, interesting.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I think there's always... there's always a client or there's always a relationship that you have, right? So it's more similar in more ways than one might expect. But with the community, I think that there's a lot of powerful energy and momentum that you can tap in that relationship. So at its best was like, we released the Battletech backer beta, right?
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
And that was our first combat demo of the game.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
uh we put that out to all of our backers and not only was that like a really exciting beat of our marketing and of our discoverability for the game but we also got some great feedback right like this was sort of like not public early access but this was our version of you know being able to reach these players directly and and see their experiences with the game and react to them uh
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
So I do think Kickstarter for us was very good to us in that way. And publisher relationships run the gamut, right? So you can have opportunities for that sort of thing in any business relationship. You can have challenges. Certainly with a democratized funding partner, there's a lot of different voices that may want different things.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I think their spaceships are really cool.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Like, I'll be honest. I haven't paid too close attention to that one. Um, at least not in, in several years. Uh,
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
uh yeah in fact he said several years that's your answer right there like seriously those spaceships i love a good spaceship that's uh you know i know i've seen some concept artists i follow like work on just some amazing stuff for that game so i if it if it can get out there like you said and then there's a game and there's this world to explore like that's awesome
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I like to say it's kind of just figuring out how to make it happen. Right. So that's, that's on the development side. Like, how are we putting all this stuff together in engine? Like what are all the moving parts? And then, and then that's also on the business side, right? Like money is an important part of, uh, how to make something happen. So, um, that's, uh, It's a little bit of everything.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
asterisk yeah man you know I'll say part of it and hand it over but like creative constraints are sometimes the best gift you can have in the process so it's like even if that were the case and you know there's a heavy asterisk on it it's like that's not always the promised like sort of you know
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
golden whatever vision of dev like the i think having a target and having a sort of box to work within at least for me has always been just a big part of the problem solving and the the you know where the best ideas come from yeah and i would say like it's definitely true as long as you have
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, definitely asterisk. I mean... yeah so there's so many different uh types of investment and and types of publishers and even just the individual people involved uh in this industry like that all makes a big difference but i'd say also like any any deal or or um agreement you know comes down to to The better goal alignment you have, the stronger that that relationship is.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
And I think that especially in the game industry of 2025, when you're going into something like this, you... Should. Should, hopefully. You should know. You've already done a lot of this legwork to understand your audience, to reach players. We're talking to you guys. It's huge. And go into that deal already sort of knowing, well, here's what's in it for us. Here's what's in it for you guys.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
You know, we went independent again last year. So when you're a small studio like this, it's sort of like you're all the, I don't know, you're the crew of a little spaceship, right? And everyone's wearing a lot of different hats.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
And here's our shared goal. We know this audience. We can reach this audience. And we want to give them a great game. And, uh, and you know, that's, that's a good, that's a good foundation. And then it, it, so I'd say it's like in success, it should not be that dramatic that you were describing. Not that it couldn't happen. It hasn't happened.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I'd say most people working in like... Everybody wants a good game. It's really hard to get to. Good game fails. And devil's in the details. But nobody's like... All right.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Being an indie game studio is a lot like being a garage band.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Oh, that's a good question. Got to pull up my Steam wish list, actually.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
I'm trying to make a game for everybody. I've been big into Resident Evil and Dead Space and just that sort of stuff these days. Honestly, I'm looking. I'm trying to...
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
You can follow us on socials too at WeBeHairbrained. If you have questions about Graft, you know, write us, you know, get in touch with us now. We'd love to hear from folks.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
All right. Thanks for having us, guys.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, there's definitely an element of human duct tape, I guess, kind of.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
wrapping everything together uh just just you know like chris does such a good job of like focusing in on the soul of the game and like what's really gonna what do we want to connect how do we want to connect with players right and just like uh and and that that kind of becomes the north star right like it's it's our job to make the best game that we are capable of making and uh
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
And just everything's got to come back.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Oh, gosh. I mean, there's so many moments.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
So we got our start, Hairbrain got our start making mobile games. We had a contract to make this iPad pirate game for Bungie, like, back in 2011. Oh, okay. That was the first game, you know, that was sort of a crash course in this team. Chris, there's probably, like, eight or nine of us in a storage closet that our founder Jordan was renting out.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
And so that was our crash course working together as a team. I'd probably choose the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter because man that IP that the Shadowrun universe has such a strong fan base and community built around it since Jordan created it back in the early 90s and we put that Kickstarter campaign together in just a couple months and had no idea what to expect and
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
seeing those numbers sheet up on the first day is like, well, you know, we're, this is happening. And that was a different scale of game than anything we'd made before. So that was sort of like, welcome to the, Yeah. I don't know if it qualifies as the big leagues or not, but you know, the next league. I would say so.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Hey, everybody. Howdy. Thanks for having us on, guys.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, he came on to add some music, I think, for the trailer for Shadowrun Returns, and then Altered Dragon came on.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? I mean, literally, Mike.
Video Gamers Podcast
Getting Down with Graft - Gaming Podcast
Yeah. Like John came back and it was this track.