Gaming hosts Josh and Ryan are joined by Harebrained Studios Mike and Chris to chat Graft! Graft is a cyberpunk survival horror with a very promising future! Join us as we chat the BANGER of a trailer, how they came up with the idea, the challenges of indie game development and learn the difference between a Creative Director and Executive Producer when it comes to gaming. It’s another video game packed episode from the Video Gamers Podcast! Make sure you Wishlist Graft here: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3141390/GRAFT/ Thanks to our MYTHIC Supporters: Redletter, Ol’ Jake, Disratory and Gaius Connect with the show: Support us on Patreon: patreon.com/videogamerspod Join our Gaming Community: https://discord.gg/Dsx2rgEEbz Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/videogamerspod/ Follow us on X: https://twitter.com/VideoGamersPod Subscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU12YOMnAQwqFZEdfXv9c3Q Visit us on the web: https://videogamerspod.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What game are we discussing in this episode?
Hello, fellow gamers, and welcome to the Video Gamers Podcast. Nothing is quite as fun as finding a game that gets you excited, a game that just looks incredible. We get that hype meter going, the hype train starts rolling, and the rest is nothing but the pure joy of anticipation. Well, boy, do we have an episode for you. But first, some introductions are in order.
I am your host, Josh, and joining me... It's not every day that he starts humming the song to a trailer or it gets him smiling like this. It's Ryan. Dude, I'm just over here raving. Where's my glow sticks? Oh, man. People are going to be like, what? Raven? What is this episode? And joining us, they're the men of the hour. The guys who helped make one of the best trailers we've seen in a while.
The masterminds behind Graft. It's Mike and Chris.
Hey, everybody. Howdy. Thanks for having us on, guys.
Chapter 2: Who are the creators of Graft?
How are you guys doing? Oh, absolutely. We are so excited to have you guys here. We are going to be talking about this Graft game that you guys are developing. We're going to talk about this trailer that's got us hyped. We'll talk a little bit about what it's like to be a smaller indie studio as well, get some insight into what you guys do and all of that.
So this is going to be a really fun episode. So thank you both for joining us today. And then, you know what, I'll tell you what, just for the listeners, can you guys give us a little bit of background about like kind of what you do? You guys both work at Hairbrained Studios and what it is that you actually do there.
Yeah, yeah. So I'm Mike McCain. I'm the executive producer here at Hairbrained.
And I'm Chris Rogers. I'm creative director at Harebrained.
We've both been with the studio. We've been making games together since 2011. That's when Harebrained was founded. We're probably best known for Shadowrun, Battletech. Those are two of our big games on Steam. Had over millions of players for both. And yeah, that's kind of our story. We've made a lot of different games over the years. I think a big through line for us is just
we love bringing these great game worlds to life. And then we love giving you guys, you know, players like you as much agency as we can within those worlds to play the way that you want to play. So that's, that's us.
That's awesome. So you guys have actually been working together since 2011. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And you guys are still friends? I want to wring this guy's neck every other day. Like, I don't know.
Only every third day. No, I mean, it's been great, right? Like time flies when you're having fun. Apparently we've, we've shipped probably like, well, like 10 or 11 games and DLCs together at this point. It's been a journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Chapter 3: What roles do Mike and Chris play in game development?
So I want to give our listeners because I'd actually love to dive into like what like what the different roles do. I mean, executive producer, creative director, you know, I mean, that kind of stuff. But before we get into that, you did mention Battletech and Shadowrun. So just to give our listeners kind of an idea of the pedigree that you guys actually bring with you here. I mean, you know.
Just kind of starting at the earliest here, Shadowrun, you mentioned that. You guys have Shadowrun Returns, which released in 2013, Shadowrun Dragonfall in 2014, Shadowrun Hong Kong in 2015. And as gamers, we do look at review scores and things like that. You guys... You guys have not made a bad game. They're killing it.
I mean, the review scores for these games range from 83% for Battletech, which is your newest game, which released in 2018. I mean, who doesn't love mechs, right? I mean, 83%, 88%, 89%, 86%. You guys are crushing it, man. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so, yeah. So, you know, like I said, you guys have been doing this a long time. You obviously know what you're doing, but yeah.
Can you give us, I mean, we're, we're just gamers. We, you know, we don't really understand a lot of the kind of titles and things like that. So Mike, you mentioned that you are the executive producer for hair brain. So what, what does it actually entail for somebody that doesn't understand that title at all?
I like to say it's kind of just figuring out how to make it happen. Right. So that's, that's on the development side. Like, how are we putting all this stuff together in engine? Like what are all the moving parts? And then, and then that's also on the business side, right? Like money is an important part of, uh, how to make something happen. So, um, that's, uh, It's a little bit of everything.
You know, we went independent again last year. So when you're a small studio like this, it's sort of like you're all the, I don't know, you're the crew of a little spaceship, right? And everyone's wearing a lot of different hats.
Well, the numbers seem to be going well with the ratings, like Josh said. I mean, I don't know if my mom would even give me an 88%. Those are some good numbers. I'll share your moment.
Yeah. And then Chris, for you, what is it exactly? And just remind people what the title is and then kind of what that entails for you.
So just like on the business side with the executive producer, the creative director is mostly focused on the creative side. So that's everything from game design to the narrative, which is always really important in our games. And it's not being like...
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Chapter 4: What makes the music in Graft stand out?
That's got to be like the most memorable experience. But is there something like that with your kind of history together in development and stuff that kind of stands out to you guys?
Oh, gosh. I mean, there's so many moments.
Yeah. I was going to say, I bet this is one of those, like, it's hard to pick one, right?
So we got our start, Hairbrain got our start making mobile games. We had a contract to make this iPad pirate game for Bungie, like, back in 2011. Oh, okay. That was the first game, you know, that was sort of a crash course in this team. Chris, there's probably, like, eight or nine of us in a storage closet that our founder Jordan was renting out.
Chapter 5: How was the trailer for Graft created?
And so that was our crash course working together as a team. I'd probably choose the Shadowrun Returns Kickstarter because man that IP that the Shadowrun universe has such a strong fan base and community built around it since Jordan created it back in the early 90s and we put that Kickstarter campaign together in just a couple months and had no idea what to expect and
seeing those numbers sheet up on the first day is like, well, you know, we're, this is happening. And that was a different scale of game than anything we'd made before. So that was sort of like, welcome to the, Yeah. I don't know if it qualifies as the big leagues or not, but you know, the next league. I would say so.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the, we're about to make a big game. And then Chris, what about for you? Is there something that stands out for you?
That's a good one. Um, you know, I think, I think when you get to a launch, like, uh, we always have a studio tradition, uh, like Mitch would come and bring cigars and, and everybody would, uh, have a cigar and everything. And every time that that happened, you know, like when you're doing your life and you're just kind of going through things, you don't really notice the passage of time.
And then all of a sudden, like some moment like this would come back where it's like a tradition. And every time we had one of those, it was a moment where I'd go back home and be like, whoa, a lot's changed. Like a lot's changed in my life. A lot's changed in everybody's lives. Like people have gotten married. They've had kids. I felt ill because I don't smoke cigars that often. Yeah.
oh i know that mistake but i think i think each one of those times like as a slice you know just each time is like oh like times jumped forward again yeah that's a big moment how awesome that's so cool yeah
Okay. All right. We've danced around this long enough, guys.
Go ahead. Get to it. I got to. We got to talk graft a little bit. Josh has been very excited. As you can tell.
I'm an excitable guy. Okay. So we have to talk graft. And the first thing that I have to ask you guys, because, man... This just really just was a huge hit for my brain right away, is the music that you guys have in that trailer. Number one, I'm a fan of EDM. I like electronic music. I grew up in the 80s and 90s.
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Chapter 6: What is the gameplay experience of Graft?
That's a good question. Mike, do you want to jump in? I'm just going to reiterate.
I'll throw out my thoughts. John is a legend. We're very glad to have his talent and collaboration on. Gosh, I mean, everything we've made in the past decade.
He's done a lot of stuff.
It's sort of like I don't know how to give you a generalized answer to that question because I know our way of doing it is to talk to John. Yeah, just go to John. That's a good thing to have.
And I think at the indie level – You have to do one thing that really stands out. And if you're operating at something that's more AAA level, that's not my world. So I don't know. I'm speaking somewhat out of turn here. But you need your audience to...
to feel like it is going to be something, you know, expansive, like that's going to be the equivalent of a Marvel movie or the equivalent of like gladiator or something like that. So you need, that kind of pushes you more towards orchestral. It pushes you more towards, you have those, you have those resources to you and stuff like that. So I think that sort of,
creates a certain type of sound, whereas indies kind of have to sort of say, pick me and kind of try to find something that fits their voice. You mentioned Hollow Knight, which is a soundtrack I love. And that game... has its own look and it has its own feel all the way through.
And it has that, you know, and it couldn't have anything other than those kind of mournful, kind of very lonely tracks that kind of flow through everything.
Definitely. It compliments from what we saw, you know, from the game, it compliments it so well. So, I mean, you guys did a good job on the pairing as well. So, I mean, we can't wait to get into it and we're going to dive into what we saw more.
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Chapter 7: How do Mike and Chris approach developing a new IP?
And it's like, wow, like it was so scary. And then I just kept thinking about it. Like, and I kept thinking about the choices that I made and, and how it would have turned out differently.
I'm reminded of like the Nier series where it focuses on that, almost like that deep thought, right? Like you're playing this game and of course the game is fun and it's got all these different aspects.
But when you finish playing like Nier Automata, it's the, you almost start to question like the, you know, the humanity or like you said, this existential like thinking, you know, and how that there's this like deeper underlying meaning to a lot of what you do in that game. And it really gets you thinking at that point.
And I mean, I think there's a reason that the Nier series is so beloved by a lot of people because it's one of those games that you walk away from and you kind of go like, man, this one hit hard.
It keeps a little place in your heart. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So other words, good answer. That's what I'm saying. I liked it. We liked it. That's a good one. Yeah. Oh, man.
So I don't know if we can if you if you can't answer this question, that's fine. But do you guys have a tentative like target release date for for this game at this point?
Not yet.
Not yet. OK. And that's good because, you know, it used to be and I am very guilty of this, that when a game got announced and it had a release date set Cyberpunk 2077 famously, I took off of work seven different times for that game.
Because, you know, because it kept getting delayed and it kept getting delayed and I got really, really frustrated and I had to keep going back to my work and telling him why I didn't need this week off after all. I just want to play the game. I know, right?
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Chapter 8: What influences the game's themes and style?
Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's a lot of different factors going into that. I think certainly timing was a big thing, right? Kickstarter first came on either late 2011 or 2012. I think there was a lot of energy around this. It was very novel to have this degree of community involvement
early participation in funding a title and there's a lot of stuff that the sort of uh triple a or kind of the i guess call it mainstream game industry hadn't really invested in certain ips that that still had a lot of uh a strong you know core following like chaperone like battle tech um
So I think there was this really exciting initial opportunity, like fresh way to fund games, some untapped titles that hadn't been released
hadn't been a shadowrun game in a while um and or a story different one anyways uh and uh and so you know we were able to ride that wave really grateful for that had a just amazing community um rally behind both of those games i do think as kickstarter progressed over the years like Some of the initial novelty just wears off, right? That's part of the normal life cycle for a lot of these things.
I do think that there are some high-profile Kickstarters that ran into trouble for whatever reason, weren't able to deliver on their rewards, so...
or all of them so i think you know there's a little bit more caution going into kickstarters after a few years of of measuring the results compared to you know the blue sky of kickstarter's amazing right at the start yeah um and then and then you know there's also uh there's also unfortunately just this like calibration of expectations around um
what it takes to make a game versus what is possible to raise on Kickstarter and, and, you know, games are expensive to make. And, and I think that, and, and Kickstarter, you know, don't forget, like you're paying some fees into making the crowdfunding possible. And then you're also paying to fulfill whatever awards you've promised. Right. And, and, We were so fortunate.
Jordan, our founder, has a long history. He's made tabletop games. He's done a lot of physical goods fulfillment over the years. But if you're running a campaign back then and you didn't have that experience, I do think there were some people that got overcommitted on the amount of backpacks or figurines or whatever they were going to send out.
So it all, you know, it's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's, uh, interesting.
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