Nicole Perlroth

And nobody paused to think about how all this digitization might come back to eat us. Now, here's where I should tell you that I am among those who thought US warnings about Huawei were totally over the top. If there were actual instances of Chinese spies intercepting data through Huawei or ZTE, my personal feeling here is that the US intelligence community should present them.

And nobody paused to think about how all this digitization might come back to eat us. Now, here's where I should tell you that I am among those who thought US warnings about Huawei were totally over the top. If there were actual instances of Chinese spies intercepting data through Huawei or ZTE, my personal feeling here is that the US intelligence community should present them.

Same goes for TikTok. Listen, I'm sensitive to the need to protect sources and methods here. But if the Chinese government is using TikTok to spy on Americans or somehow tweaking the algorithms to spoon feed CCP propaganda to Gen Z, the U.S. government should declassify that because we know their finger wagging doesn't work.

Same goes for TikTok. Listen, I'm sensitive to the need to protect sources and methods here. But if the Chinese government is using TikTok to spy on Americans or somehow tweaking the algorithms to spoon feed CCP propaganda to Gen Z, the U.S. government should declassify that because we know their finger wagging doesn't work.

And the reason we know it doesn't work is because all you have to do is travel to any major European city these days, and you will see Huawei all over the place. In downtown Kiev, in downtown Copenhagen, they are running hundreds of smart city pilots around the globe.

And the reason we know it doesn't work is because all you have to do is travel to any major European city these days, and you will see Huawei all over the place. In downtown Kiev, in downtown Copenhagen, they are running hundreds of smart city pilots around the globe.

Huawei's equipment is baked into 5G networks in Germany and even cell towers in rural America, many of them uncomfortably close to our most sensitive missile sites in places like Wyoming, Nebraska, and Montana.

Huawei's equipment is baked into 5G networks in Germany and even cell towers in rural America, many of them uncomfortably close to our most sensitive missile sites in places like Wyoming, Nebraska, and Montana.

Now, last year, Germany said it would start excluding Huawei and ZTE from its 5G networks. But ripping these systems out isn't easy. Under Biden, Congress allocated billions of dollars to rip and replace these Huawei systems from rural America. And that wasn't nearly enough.

Now, last year, Germany said it would start excluding Huawei and ZTE from its 5G networks. But ripping these systems out isn't easy. Under Biden, Congress allocated billions of dollars to rip and replace these Huawei systems from rural America. And that wasn't nearly enough.

And again, I maintain what I still believe is a healthy skepticism about U.S. concerns on Huawei and other Chinese suppliers throughout the 2010s. But all of that went out the window when, in 2020, Chinese hackers started coming for U.S. infrastructure with unnerving frequency.

And again, I maintain what I still believe is a healthy skepticism about U.S. concerns on Huawei and other Chinese suppliers throughout the 2010s. But all of that went out the window when, in 2020, Chinese hackers started coming for U.S. infrastructure with unnerving frequency.

What started with these Chinese hacks of US pipeline operations and their software suppliers became an all-out assault on US critical infrastructure. By 2020, Volt Typhoon was turning up across the country. And the fact that anyone picked these up at all was a tiny miracle. These weren't smash and grab hacks. Far from it. They weren't even hacking in anymore.

What started with these Chinese hacks of US pipeline operations and their software suppliers became an all-out assault on US critical infrastructure. By 2020, Volt Typhoon was turning up across the country. And the fact that anyone picked these up at all was a tiny miracle. These weren't smash and grab hacks. Far from it. They weren't even hacking in anymore.

They were logging in, in low and slow attacks, blending in like any other employee. They didn't use malware. They didn't siphon much out. They were careful to delete their tracks. Their primary goal appears to have been to get in, stay in, and ensure they had the ability to come back any time. Experts have a name for this style of attack. They call it living off the land.

They were logging in, in low and slow attacks, blending in like any other employee. They didn't use malware. They didn't siphon much out. They were careful to delete their tracks. Their primary goal appears to have been to get in, stay in, and ensure they had the ability to come back any time. Experts have a name for this style of attack. They call it living off the land.

They're here, lying quiet. The only question now is what's the trigger and what happens when they pull it.

They're here, lying quiet. The only question now is what's the trigger and what happens when they pull it.

That's next on To Catch a Thief. Follow To Catch a Thief to make sure you don't miss the next episode. And if you like what you hear, rate and review the show. To Catch a Thief is produced by Rubrik in partnership with Pod People, with special thanks to Julia Lee. It was written and produced by me, Nicole Perleroth, and Rebecca Chasson.

That's next on To Catch a Thief. Follow To Catch a Thief to make sure you don't miss the next episode. And if you like what you hear, rate and review the show. To Catch a Thief is produced by Rubrik in partnership with Pod People, with special thanks to Julia Lee. It was written and produced by me, Nicole Perleroth, and Rebecca Chasson.