Nish Kumar

They're not gambling with their money a lot of the time.

They're gambling with your money.

And how was that, say, just specifically taking the example of the UK, how did we get to the point where,

that that has been allowed?

What measures of deregulation have brought us here?

This is a very interesting week for you and me to be having this conversation.

Absolutely.

Because journalists around the world have been digging into the Epstein files and we're getting some sense through this story of...

the architecture of this kind of shadow banking system that the book points out.

In the book, you write about how the globalised financial system operates beyond the reach of regulatory democracy and the law.

So one big revelation this week has been Peter Mandelson leaking sensitive information to Epstein.

And the police are reviewing claims that when he was business secretary, he gave advance notice to Jeffrey Epstein of bailout from the European Union.

Now...

And can I just take a guess that you have not necessarily been as surprised, say, as some of us have been by some of the revelations, not just this EU bailout, but also the fact that Mandelson, seemingly at the instruction of Epstein, was lobbying about bankers' bonuses in 2009.

Who says we're a waning global power, Anne?

You write about how in 2021, the world lost $144.8 billion in tax revenues to tax abuse related to offshore financial wealth.

Now, there are allegations that Epstein was part of a system that created offshore structures for powerful people.

What are the implications for that?

the structures of democracy and the rule of law when capital essentially supersedes the will of democratically elected governments?

Spoiler alert.