Pablo Torre

And I think a bit of the through line in this conversation is we're watching all of the time now incredibly powerful, incredibly wealthy people, the people who are in most control of whatever is happening to us these days, right?

They are deciding that rules as a concept are things they can opt out of if they feel like it's necessary.

Yeah.

And I do want to establish like the case that you make is not you're a bad person if you don't follow the rules because rules are what we are taught to obey in school and therefore we must obey them.

What are we at?

I like how you've written a book at this moment in time where you're like, you know what is underrated?

Rules and bureaucracy.

Yeah, I want to quote from your book because in your discussion of North, you quote him, and this is the opening line of his most famous work, quote, Institutions are the rules of the game in a society, or more formally, are the humanly devised constraints that shape human interaction.

Yeah.

End quote, which is to say that we're talking about rules and not the department so much.

Because you're now advocating for what Doge was trying to trim, allegedly.

Dealing with our friends and cronies in order to get what we want.

Well, the thing that you mentioned before that brings us to sports in a non-metaphorical way is the notion that actually there was, before Douglas North came along, this popular idea that technology was responsible for all the prosperity that we were benefiting from.

The speed of innovation.

Yeah.

And it reminds me of, again, this anthropic lawsuit.

In which the argument for why you should have all of these AI companies, all of these LLMs hoovering up all of the written words humans have made, despite all of the intellectual property, the would-be intellectual property laws around it, is because if we don't do that,

we will lose.

We will lose, in fact, not just to other competitors, but we will lose to China.

You're welcome.