Pablo Torre

Well, it's because you got me tickets.

I consider you a friend, Ben Wisner, and that is the ultimate reason.

You're a fellow dad, and I just wanted to get you off the couch.

And you care about the Knicks.

I'm a lifelong fan.

This team is in the Eastern Conference semifinals.

You legitimately, and almost surprisingly insanely...

care about the Knicks.

It's not even so much the shirt as it was the standing up during free throws and celebrating.

I mean, look, you're the guy who was defended famously, the most important whistleblower arguably in American history.

And you end up being the guy who is heckling literal whistleblowers, referees on the court.

That's nicely done.

It's never occurred to you that you are both of these characters?

Is why you get the prizes.

So we talk a lot about whistleblowers and basketball and secrets on this show.

And I think there is no one more qualified to discuss the collision of all of these topics.

Then Ben Wisner, who really did have to put his cell phone away when documentarian Laura Poitras first connected him to his future client, National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden.

All of this because the government itself might be listening in.

But one of my favorite things about Ben is that he, like me, thinks a lot about the unique power of sports.

And this fact, when I first found out about it, caught me by surprise, mostly because I had only thought of Ben through the lens of his day job as the director of the American Civil Liberties Union's Center for Democracy.