Pablo Torre

And look, I do want to say, the voice that you should be listening to on how this all feels, to hold these ideas simultaneously, is not mine, it's not Stephen A.

's, and it's not yours, Madison.

Right.

It does seem like this is why, in fact, you...

made sure to talk to her actual teammates.

Yeah, Trinity Ward, if you'll remember the teammate who went on the record with us, she had been so thrilled to be a part of the University of Kentucky swim program.

But then Coach Lars changed her view of that, and she has so little respect for what Riley has spent her time doing since graduation.

I don't think that what Riley Gaines does deserves to be called advocacy.

When we think of advocacy, we think of people that are campaigning, fighting for justice.

a better future.

And normally the word that comes to mind when you think of advocacy is inclusion, not exclusion.

If you told most people all you have to do is make hateful statements on the internet, post some ad brands, and you're going to have

half the country worshiping you and hanging up your picture on their daughter's wall saying you're an American hero and you're going to never work a real job the rest of your life.

I mean, most people, that's their dream.

That is the easy way, in some ways, really the easy way out.

I can't think of anything else besides money and fame that would cause the dramatic transformation in Riley that I've seen.

Because like I said, I never would have thought that this would happen.

And I

I thought very highly of her before.

And so at the end here, when it comes to this question of like, how do you tell the story then of Riley Gaines in this context and this movement in this context and these allegations in this full context?