Chapter 1: What is the background of Riley Gaines and her connection to the trans-athlete debate?
So the reason you're hearing and seeing me right now is because we have a bit of incredible news to share.
Our show, Pablo Torre Finds Out, was not only named one of the best of 2025 by Apple Podcasts, but our episode, The Silent Superstar and the Rotten Apple Tree, which was, you know, the whole investigation and aspiration and Kawhi Leonard and the Clippers, was also chosen as one of Apple Podcasts' best episodes of the year.
You can check both of those things out, the best shows and the best episodes list. right now in the Apple podcast app. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you for making clear what Apple time, Apple time actually means. And today you are going to find out what this sound is. Where's our beautiful, great swimmer gains. Where's gains? Look at, come up here. Will you please come up here?
Come up, come up, come up. This is a great champion. And she was beating everybody and then one day she looked over and said, that's the largest human being I've ever seen.
Right after this ad.
This is really cool. I've never done anything like this before. I've never done a podcast before. Apologies in advance. No, no, no, no. So I want to explain for our audience here. Let's just get into it. I want to explain for our audience here that you, Madison, are joining us from where? I'm in San Francisco. I'm in the Center for Investigative Reporting Offices.
The Center for Investigative Reporting is, of course, the parent company of Mother Jones, which is one of the most venerable journalistic institutions in America, has been that way for decades upon decades upon decades. And it's really cool to partner with you guys on a story that I have been trying to fit into our strange docket
Because I think that this investigation that you did for us is the thing that has been lurking underneath the surface of like the most explosive topic in sports and politics for, what, four years? Four quite consequential years at the very least at this point? Yeah, even more. 2020, I think, is when this all started. And it has been a wild ride. And I'm excited to dig into this part of it.
Yeah, so this is, if nothing else, a profile. It's a profile of, I think, what might be the main character of this movement that has dominated American politics. So who is the face of this movement, Madison?
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Chapter 2: How did Riley Gaines become a prominent figure in the anti-trans movement?
He was in his first NFL camp at 28. Look, when I eventually write my autobiography, my memoirs, I too might turn my parents into superstar athletes. Absolutely. I do know that Riley Gaines herself, though, was like a seven-time state champion swimmer in high school, right? Like she was legit. This is a legitimate prospect. Yeah, she was good. She qualified for the Olympic trials at 15.
There's a part of chapter one of the book also where she talks about how she winds up at the University of Kentucky, where a lot of her lore took place. And in 2016, she found herself with this decision to make. It was time to choose a college where I could continue excelling in my athletic career.
And what she describes is this very fond memory of being almost relentlessly recruited by the head swimming coach at the University of Kentucky who sold Riley Gaines at one point on attending a Kentucky basketball game. Don't judge. This was when Kentucky men's basketball was actually good and not losing to St. Peter's Peacocks.
Never in a million years did I think I'd actually fall in love with the school, which, of course, I did. And that annoying coach who kept calling and emailing me, he became and still is one of my best friends. The coach that became one of her best friends, as she calls him, the relentless swimming coach that recruited her, what was his name? That coach was Lars Jorgensen.
Riley calls him Coach Lars, so we can call him that too. He was a former college swimmer. He made it to the Olympics in 1988. Came back, coached D1 in Louisiana, Ohio, Tennessee. And by the time Riley got to Kentucky in 2018, her freshman year, he'd been head coach of the Wildcats there for four years. And they were doing great under him. They were, by all accounts, on the rise.
In the beginning of freshman year, he continually addressed me as a loft. I had no idea what this meant, and I never questioned it until one day I mustered up the courage to ask. I was told it means lack of effing talent. Ah, cool. Thanks. We don't just have to take Riley's word for it that this was how Coach Lars operated.
I talked to three of her former teammates at Kentucky, two of them who spoke on condition of anonymity because they know that Riley's fans and followers might go after people. But one of them said, agreed to go on the record. My name is Trinity Ward. I swam at University of Kentucky from 2019 to 2022. Also, she was brave enough to speak to us on camera.
Trinity started at UK a year after Riley did. And by the time she's getting recruited at UK, she's seeing its intense training program. She's seeing all the resources that the school puts into the program. It was really pitched as, and rightfully so, this program where, you know, you almost could have this rags to riches story of somebody that came in as a decent swimmer.
And all of a sudden, after going through this training program, dropping, you know... 10 to 20 seconds sometimes and really just improving a lot and becoming an all-star, making the all-American team, becoming an SECA finalist, qualifying for NCAAs, meddling and finaling at NCAAs, which was really inspiring to me.
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Chapter 3: What controversies surrounded the NCAA and Leah Thomas's participation in women's sports?
How different is the person that these teammates see on television from the Riley Gaines that they swam with back in 2019, 2020? It's really clear that Riley has gone through a significant evolution. Trinity, who was friends with her at the time, says that Riley in college was really different than her super Christian, super conservative public persona these days.
And according to my 31-page timeline of Riley's life, this is 2021 after Trump left office. They took a two-hour drive together up to another teammate's family lake house. This is so funny looking back on. I drove a car of people and like Riley was in my front seat. We talked the two hours there and back. And we both have conservative Christian upbringings.
Like kind of like talked about that and shared just about like dads that were definitely more like old school kids. And her making a comment and just being like, yeah, like I'm not like a diehard tromper. And that really like tracked with everything. I mean, to me, like that made sense and tracked with what I had seen. Like Riley was a very down to earth, very practical person.
As a queer person that swam on that team, I never was like, wow, I feel like Riley's going to hate crying me today or like Riley makes me feel unsafe. I am so grateful to see President Trump's quick and decisive action to uphold his campaign promise and protect female athletes.
If you told me four years ago that Riley Gaines was going to be the spokesperson for the anti-trans movement, be speaking with Trump, I'd be like, what? You're crazy. Like, she doesn't even actually like him. And, you know, when you hear that, and you even make allowances for the fact that all of us, I assume both of us were probably different in college than we are now, right?
It does make me want to really understand, like, what the f*** happened. The story here, like, it takes a turn. And where that takes us seems like it's worthy of, again, a return to your 31-page timeline about her life. Yeah, there's definitely a transformation that happens at the time that Riley graduates. There is a radicalization that happens and we see her become someone who's unrecognizable.
So I take us back now to the part of your 31-page timeline of the life of Riley Gaines, where the origin story that she has sanctioned is about to take place. Because here is Riley Gaines and here is Coach Lars at this sporting event at the crux of American politics.
the 2022 NCAA Women's Swimming Championships, which is not only the most controversial sporting event in America's recent history, it's also the one that I don't think people have ever actually seen. Oh, no chance. It's the final in a women's 500-yard freestyle. Ladies! And you can see and feel the tension in this building. Okay, so we're in Atlanta. This is Georgia Tech's pool. It's March.
Outside the facility, there are anti-trans protesters because the most notorious star in women's college swimming at the time is Leah Thomas.
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Chapter 4: What allegations have been made against Coach Lars Jorgensen?
You weren't there. Leah Thomas declined an interview request, understandably. Riley didn't get back to me. But I did talk to not just the anonymous swimmer we heard from earlier, but also two other swimmers who competed at the NCAAs, two of whom say they changed with Leah there in the locker room. And they were pretty eager to help me fact check this.
Riley's teammate, who we'll hear from now, refers to the locker room as the bathroom situation. NCAAs is only women's and that it's only men's. So they open up all of the bathrooms to the athletes. So there's no men's restroom. It's just, this is the women's restroom. She says that in the locker room, Leah was just changing in a corner, wrapped in a towel, keeping to herself.
We're all very comfortable being naked. People don't usually cover themselves with towels to change or go in bathroom stalls or anything like that. But any of the times I would see her in there, she's wrapped in her towel. She's turned around, not facing anyone. I felt bad for her. I was like, she didn't ask to be put in this environment with these people and treated this way.
She just wanted to come and swim. That story is not the one that we hear on Fox News. And then Riley Gaines is on with none other than Tucker Carlson. I have such an amazing support system at the University of Kentucky, whether that be from the athletic director all the way down to my head coach, Lars Jorgensen. But just speaking for them, it's just totally wrong.
And I know I can't speak for everyone, but I am almost certain I'm speaking for a large majority of female athletes that this is just not okay and it's not fair. And There's the name check of Coach Lars as part of this amazing support system that she is describing. And really, really quickly, she starts getting involved in politics.
She actually goes to the Kentucky State Legislature trying to get lawmakers to override the governor's veto of a trans sports ban. And they do within a month, within a month of swimming against Leah Thomas. So it's just this immediate transition. And just a reminder here, we're in the middle of a midterm election year. And so now we're months removed from the NCAAs.
And Riley Gaines gets put into campaign ads speaking for girls all across America. I trained from an early age, giving it my all to achieve my dream. We see her in a campaign ad for Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul. But Rand Paul is not afraid to fight for fairness for women and girls. And that's why I'm supporting him.
This year in an ad for then-Republican governor of South Dakota, Kristi Noem. Kristi Noem stood up for us, passing the toughest law in the country to defend female sports. Who also happens to be, by the way, the now Secretary of Homeland Security in charge of ICE.
Mm-hmm.
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Chapter 5: How has Riley Gaines's narrative evolved in the media?
And not only is she saying that they're men, she's saying that if they participate in women's sports, that's a kind of abuse. The equivalent she's making there is that Larry Nassar, again, responsible for the sexual assault and predation of more than 100 athletes.
That is very similar to what Riley Gaines experienced when she lost to a trans athlete and tied for fifth at the NCAA Swimming Championships. And after all of this, it's Simone Biles who actually apologizes. She had gone and said earlier that Riley Gaines' body was like a man's, which I think everyone would say that crossed a line. But...
There was no apology from Riley after making this comparison. In fact, she doubled down. And to be clear, she has access now to every rung of the media ladder. Yeah, to recap, Daily Wire, Clay Travis, Charlie Kirk, Fox News, all day, every day. And I regret to inform you that Riley Gaines, like you, is also a podcaster. I was worried that that connection was also going to be made.
So Riley Gaines, like me, is in fact a podcaster, but she is also, not just that, she is working for Fox News as a frequent contributor. She's a political figure. She's a speaker on college campuses at Turning Point USA, formerly hired as a contributor last year.
The same year, by the way, 2024, where she became the vice chair, Madison, of something called the Athletes for America Coalition at the America First Policy Institute. This resume, this ever-expanding resume, how enriching is it? Okay, so six months ago when you sent me down this rabbit hole, this is absolutely what I wanted to find out. Like how much money is Riley Gaines actually making?
So I hear that on this podcast you like tax forms. I have plenty of them. That is my deviance. My deviance, my fetish is tax forms. I am so sorry. So the Federal Election Commission, this is actually a disclosure from the FEC. I think you might have copies there too. Yes. Yes, I do.
And what you wind up seeing in these documents is that over the last three years, from 2023 to 2025, speaker fees for Riley Gaines, as paid out by various state and local Republican committees, have more than octupled. So in 2023, we have Riley Gaines making $3,000 at an appearance in Kentucky and In 2024. We're seeing a $13,929 fee from the Republican Central Committee in Nevada.
And then on page 45 of a filing from Harris County Republicans in Texas, this past June, $25,000. Again, more than eight times bigger than two years earlier, tracking right alongside the sharpening and perfecting of this whole trans inclusion as sexual assault argument. From Riley Gaines in dozens upon dozens and dozens of appearances all over Fox News.
Riley Gaines joins us now. Riley Gaines joins us right now with reaction. Riley Gaines, she's America's number one feminist as far as I'm concerned. An ambassador at the Independent Women's Forum, Riley Gaines. Riley, good morning, thanks for being here. Riley Gaines is with us. Riley, how are you?
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of the recent lawsuits involving Riley Gaines?
And after those 13 years at the U.S. anti-doping agency, actually not representing Lance Armstrong, taking down Lance Armstrong, this lawyer, Bill Bach, left his job in 2020 and got a new client, Donald Trump. Of course. This is when Trump was denying the results of the 2020 election. I believe I remember Bill Bach, who also worked for the NCAA itself.
He was on this committee that handed down punishments to schools that break NCAA rules and stuff before quitting in protest. because he wrote a giant op-ed in the Wall Street Journal in which he accused the NCAA of, quote, regressive, discriminatory, anti-woman policies, end quote.
And it seems like the origin story for his position there in the pages of the Wall Street Journal was that Riley Gaines happened to tie Leah Thomas for fifth place in Atlanta at the NCAA Championships. the swimming race that started it all. And now he's working for her. Now she is his client. And P.S., he's not critiquing how the NCAA treats female athletes in other contexts.
This is all about trans people.
The NCAA has imposed a radical anti-woman agenda on college sports, redefined women as a testosterone level, permitted men to compete on women's teams, destroyed female safe spaces in women's locker rooms by authorizing naked men possessing full male genitalia to disrobe in front of non-consenting college women.
And so as we continue to examine the grift that keeps on giving, billbox legal argument here in Gaines v. NCAA, which is filed in 2024, it does have to do with Title IX. This is the law from the 1970s that banned sex discrimination in American schools.
Quote, no person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance. End quote.
Riley Gaines is the lead plaintiff in this lawsuit, but Bill Bach also filed on behalf of 15 more female athletes who all have complaints about trans people. And they say that letting Leah Thomas swim, but also letting any other trans athlete compete in the women's division, violates Title IX. Right.
The way to get there is legally portray Riley Gaines as this victim and provide a roadmap for the permanent extinction of trans women, trans girls in K through 12, all the way up to college in terms of their ability to participate in sports. And I just have to imagine here, hiring the guy who represented Donald Trump himself, like that cannot be cheap.
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Chapter 7: How do funding sources influence the anti-trans movement in sports?
And meanwhile, back on Swim Swam, in the comments section, which is pretty lively, as I've learned. I have heard of Swim Swam before. It is the place for argument, commentary, and it turns out, tips in a larger investigation. The stories about Jorgensen were not just about running swimmers ragged and the kinds of eating disorder pressures that we see throughout women's sports. It got even darker.
And so we find out exactly how much darker in April 2024. And that's when two people on the swim team, both of them former members of the team who Jorgensen had then hired as assistant coaches, they filed another lawsuit alleging that Jorgensen sexually assaulted them.
One of the swimmers who files this lawsuit, she alleges that Jorgensen forcibly raped her multiple times between 2019 and 2023, which includes Riley's time on the team. And it says that he would tell the alleged victim he would ruin her reputation if she told anyone. The other one says that in 2022, he groped and kissed her without consent.
And their complaint also alleges that he raped a third assistant coach at his home after a Christmas party several years earlier. Lars Jorgensen did not respond to questions that I sent him. His lawyers didn't either. In court papers, he said that the sexual assault claims are not true. What did the university itself have to say?
Yeah, they said that they were not aware of the most serious allegations until this lawsuit was filed. That's a quote. And they continued and said, UK has consistently acted upon and investigated allegations when they were known and when complainants have opted to pursue allegations and participate in the investigative process, end quote.
And they're saying this because the swimmers who filed the lawsuit say that the university had discouraged them from reporting their claims. Right, and the university also is saying, quote, this has prompted an important conversation about what more we can do to ensure the health, safety, and well-being of all community members, end quote.
And they then go on to list a series of reforms across campus. But the big question that we have worked our way around to is,
from where we started and that climb up through conservative politics and the top of America itself, all the way to this lawsuit here, which, as described, is horrific, is what do we prioritize and who are we protecting when it comes to the question of what women's sports should be concerned about? It's a shifting of the perspective from what you're hearing on Fox News.
One of the assistant coaches who filed the lawsuit against Lars Jorgensen has since transitioned, female to male. And the lawsuit uses she, her pronouns to talk about the time period around the alleged assaults, which is why we're doing that too. But when the case was first filed, Jorgensen's lawyer at the time brought Riley into it.
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