Patrick Carey

And I think when you're writing about sex acts that don't feature widely in the social discourse, maybe being explicit is necessary because you need to communicate exactly what's going on.

Yeah, I think I would say if you had to put them on a scale of sad or depressing, the first book would certainly win out over cleanness.

I think you sort of hit the nail on the head there, Kate, is that one of the things he does so wonderfully is not be judgmental at all.

And part of that is being extremely honest about his emotional state of being.

So, yes, the character does engage in these risque sexual liaisons.

And risky.

And risky.

Risque and risky.

But I think it would be remiss of the writer not to dissect the character's anxieties about these practices as well because no one exists in a bubble and while...

there's no doubt that people do engage in these practices in fulfilling and happy ways.

There's also a lot of shame, a lot of internalised homophobia that orbits around them as well.

And so Garth Greenwell kind of gives you the full spectrum.

And I think what he's trying to do is in some way, you know, address these negative aspects of the character's self

but also inject a kind of emotional balance by also exploring like his love, you know, his love attraction to one of the characters in the book.

And it's a very, for such a short book, it contains an awful lot of different emotions.

Yeah, he does.

And, I mean, it's also interesting to learn a little bit about, you know, the fate of Eastern Europe in more contemporary times because so much of the history that we hear about it is linked around the end of the Cold War and all that sort of stuff.

He writes very plainly and accessibly about living in a place that he doesn't fully understand whilst also having an active interest in it.

I think that there's one particular section which I think you're referring to, Kate, is where he attends a rally

And he really, like a sort of political protest.