Pete Buttigieg

And it's an area where I would part with some in my own party.

I think for too long, you've heard the message from

I think for too long, you've heard the message from

Democrats is basically debt doesn't matter or there's no such thing.

Democrats is basically debt doesn't matter or there's no such thing.

And there was a moment when this felt a little more credible.

And there was a moment when this felt a little more credible.

Some of the evidence as of a few years ago put a lot of wind in the sails of what was called modern monetary theory.

Some of the evidence as of a few years ago put a lot of wind in the sails of what was called modern monetary theory.

I think a lot of that looks different now.

I think a lot of that looks different now.

And then you have the Republicans, right, who say that debt matters, but then act the exact opposite.

And then you have the Republicans, right, who say that debt matters, but then act the exact opposite.

Now, look, as a good Democrat, I could point out that I would argue there's a difference in terms of what history empirically has shown us in terms of the return on investment you get when you raise debt to fix roads and bridges and other productive infrastructure.

Now, look, as a good Democrat, I could point out that I would argue there's a difference in terms of what history empirically has shown us in terms of the return on investment you get when you raise debt to fix roads and bridges and other productive infrastructure.

versus if you blow up the debt in order to give massive tax breaks to the wealthiest people in the country, because that has just never generated the growth that... I mean, the Laffer curve has collapsed empirically, and it just doesn't work that way, right?

versus if you blow up the debt in order to give massive tax breaks to the wealthiest people in the country, because that has just never generated the growth that... I mean, the Laffer curve has collapsed empirically, and it just doesn't work that way, right?

So I could quibble over if you're going to do debt, what's the best thing to do with it?

So I could quibble over if you're going to do debt, what's the best thing to do with it?

And I would argue the best thing to do with it is education, healthcare, investing it, make sure kids don't get lead poisoned, investing it in ports and roads, and not...