PJ Vogt

And when I saw someone on, I was like, oh, which one are they?

Maybe they're both.

At this point, a lot of people are on it.

if the FBI monitored every single signal message and then they chose what to discard, yeah, I would feel like my privacy was being compromised.

And what you're saying is now that this has happened with Anam, the next frontier are these places where criminals and non-criminals

mix and meet.

And so we kind of have to decide.

And you're saying your proposal would be, rather than letting law enforcement eavesdrop on an entire network, why don't we make it so that law enforcement has to go to the phone?

And if they think that I'm a cocaine trafficker, they have to get into my phone rather than going to the Signal Foundation.

And for the search engine listener who is also a criminal, what is the perfect phone for a criminal to use in 2024?

So if you're a search engine listener who wants privacy for any reason, no judgments here, you criminal freaks, your question has been answered.

Joseph, thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

Joseph Cox is the co-founder of the independent website 404 Media, one of my favorite homes for tech reporting online.

His very wonderful book about Anam is called Darkwire.

Go read it.

There is a ton more story than we were able to get into here, and it is now available in paperback.

Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey.

It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Shruthi Pinamaneni.

This episode was produced by Noah John and fact-checked by Mary Mathis.