PJ Vogt

Because it's too, just the population is too small.

It's too small.

And what you're trying to do, you're trying to convince people, while the dollar is very strong, to domestically start to make goods that they can get very, very, very cheaply internationally.

And it's just like, it's very hard to do that.

Chapter four, the crisis years of the 80s and 90s.

Your family ends up leaving the country.

What was your understanding of what was going on?

I mean, you were extremely young.

What was your family's understanding?

but the dude's not entirely wrong.

It's where you, like, knowing where Shava's story goes, you describing that moment, it gives me chills.

It makes me feel the feeling of, like, I don't know, like adrenaline or something.

We're going to take a short break.

When we return, we arrive at the most formative era in modern Venezuelan history.

Hugo Chavez takes over.

Welcome back to the show.

We're now in chapter five, the origin story of Hugo Chavez.

Wait, so the idea is that you have like...

The haves are the elites, and they're sort of capturing the resources, and the military are going to be a counterweight that stands for the people.

So Chavez persuades his followers, people in the military, to read up on these 200-year-old ideas about revolution and a united Latin America.