Professor Katriona O'Sullivan

You are the most susceptible group to that, Ray, because you're like, I have made it.

I worked on, I made it out.

Yeah.

And come on, lads, you can work too.

But the truth is, Ray, if I sat with you for two hours and you told me your life, I'd be able to say, oh, this is what contributed and this contributed and this contributed and this contributed as well as your hard work.

And not everybody has the same conditions.

But we know from science, Ray, that there are certain things that contribute to success in higher education or education.

Food in your belly, a lack of trauma, neurodiversity, parents' experience of education, gender.

Gender, Ray, being a man will take it differently for you.

So all of these things are in that model.

I would love it if we got to a point where it was only work that was the predictive factor.

So let's get to there and then we can say... I'll come back to you then.

But yeah, but I understand it.

My brother is exactly...

I can't even have that conversation with him.

Like he'd be like, I worked hard.

I'm a manager.

I'm a manager.

And I worked my way.

And I'm like, I don't want to steal anyone's belief that they've done good.