Professor Mariana Mazzucato

So of course we need to get the taxes right.

Wealth tax, land tax, capital gains, corporate.

But we should also make sure that when governments are speaking to businesses, they don't get kind of bullied.

If you change the tax or intellectual property rights, then I'm leaving.

As soon as you fail, you're in the front page of the paper.

Whereas venture capitalists and entrepreneurs love it when they fail because then they say, look, yeah, I had to fail 10 times to succeed.

That's why I'm a risk taker.

We don't allow that learning by doing.

And that's why I've been helping countries think about gov labs.

Like how do you create a laboratory within a government, even a local government, that actually explicitly welcomes risk taking, experimentation and trial and error to learn how to do things better.

So I'm glad you put it that way because

Sure.

So the last time I was here, I think I was talking about my missions book, which was also about outcomes.

I wrote this one because I realized there was lots of mission washing going on.

So unless we care as much about the how that we reach mission accomplished as the what we're trying to reach, then a lot of things go wrong along the way.

So the kind of relational value really matters.

And for that, I kind of dipped into political philosophy, which I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't read every philosophical tome.

But Aristotle, Michael Sandel, you know, real kind of political philosophers, they've always thought about this.

You have the telos, the goal, and the polis, not the police, but the community, right?

So how do we build community?