Professor Mariana Mazzucato

And that's, I think, the sign of also a really good politician, one who doesn't fear kind of dissent.

And also, once you have a vision, you stick with it instead of kind of going where the wind blows.

Yeah.

But one of the things we're working on with the mayors around the world is this issue of can we also, how do you say, plot out what capabilities you require to govern really difficult problems, whether it's a flood, whether it's a World Cup in a city, whether it's carnival.

So we're working with the mayor in Rio and in Salvador.

How do you govern in a way that's inclusive?

So even carnival, right?

Like it's a great, happy party, but it's also very exclusive.

So the people in Salvador call it carnival apartheid in terms of who's in, who

out, who's welcomed, who, you know, CCTV watching all the time.

So that's really, I think, what, you know, is very important in terms of participation.

It's not just in terms of, do you have a voice?

It's, are you valued as much as other people?

And if you think of, we've talked about it before, you know, knife crime in London, if you look at the young people who it's affecting the most, including the culprits, these are many people who literally have not been made to feel very valued.

Their own body has no value.

Right.

If your own body has no value, if you have, let's just call it really strongly self-hate, well, then someone else's body has no value.

So what are the social and economic investments we should be making in places to make communities feel valued?

So I think there's two issues.

One, in terms of the way that I've been thinking about also devolution is if you really respect local communities, you will allow your gaze, your understanding of what's happening there to inform also your national policies.