Professor Mariana Mazzucato

If you think about sustainable mobility, it's about sustainability, both in terms of

climate, you know, so carbon targets, but also sustainable for people.

Like, are they living also closer to their workplace?

Or are we creating the banlieue, you know, in Paris, which interestingly, even though PSG won, right?

We saw the riots that happened.

That's when people feel very excluded from the center.

So this kind of exclusion that many cities, by the way, have had.

I mean, you and I both live in Camden, which I think is actually quite extraordinary in terms of urban planning from back in the day, where there are housing estates in the middle of a very rich square.

Think of where Amy Winehouse's house is on Camden Square.

Across the square, again, are housing estates.

There isn't what you have in New York, in Chicago, in San Francisco, which is...

You know, it's very exclusive and you end up with schools with certain types of kids.

You know, that's why they had to do the busing back in the day, not just for racial grounds, but also for class.

And I think we no longer do that.

We no longer think about how do we build cities, which are both sustainable, of course, because of the carbon issues.

but also in terms of putting culture, you know, in terms of green spaces, in terms of distance, you know, how far do you have to work, sorry, travel to go to work.

So that's why the 15 minute, you know, city is like in Paris.

I mean, anyway, so the point is he was really,

I think at least when we were working there, when I just set up the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose, interacting with those ideas, at least my experience was, in a very genuine way.

Now, what you also need is a personality that is interested, again, in speaking to people and putting yourself in communities which also might be pushing back.